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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
How do you know, by the way, that Muslim mosques in the United States preach anti-American rhetoric. |
It's well-documented.
Try this for starters. And here's the report in full.
| Ya-ta boy wrote: |
| The reformation is happening, regardless of our ignorance of it. |
Good job you didn't use a capital 'R' because we've a long way to go before that. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
How do you know, by the way, that Muslim mosques in the United States preach anti-American rhetoric. |
It's well-documented.
Try this for starters. And here's the report in full.
| Ya-ta boy wrote: |
| The reformation is happening, regardless of our ignorance of it. |
Good job you didn't use a capital 'R' because we've a long way to go before that. |
Justin, I was not intending to say that none of the mosques in America preach against the US Government. Anyway, if they want to criticize the US Government that's fine, but within bounds. Saying that they all pretty much do that I think is a stretch. As far as a reformation of the Muslim world, a step in the right direction or a few steps are not the final destination, but you never arrive at the destination if you don't bother taking the steps. I appreciate any steps at openness whether it is in Saudi Arabia, Burma, Mississippi, Nigeria, Israel, Jordan, or China. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| He turned a blind eye to the fact that Qatar's population is 900,000 and there are 150,000 foreigners there. (I don't know if the foreigners are included in the total or not.) Those numbers are at least comparable to those in Western countries. |
They are only comparable if the legal status of such people is the same as Muslims in the West. Are they, for example, entitled to citizenship, and if so, how many of them have it. Are they allowed to bring over their spouses and dependents who are then also allowed to apply for citizenship? Are they allowed to spread their religion? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| He turned a blind eye to the fact that Qatar's population is 900,000 and there are 150,000 foreigners there. (I don't know if the foreigners are included in the total or not.) Those numbers are at least comparable to those in Western countries. |
They are only comparable if the legal status of such people is the same as Muslims in the West. Are they, for example, entitled to citizenship, and if so, how many of them have it. Are they allowed to bring over their spouses and dependents who are then also allowed to apply for citizenship? Are they allowed to spread their religion? |
This goes beyond religion, my friend. Even Arabs can barely get citizenship in Qatar, Muslim or non-Muslim. The Gulf countries generally don't give citizenship out even to fellow Arab Muslims from the Mediterranean or Egypt. There have been a few cases where Kuwait gave citizenship to some Palestinian Christians, but they generally don't give it out period in Kuwait, for example. In Egypt, in theory, if a Christian Egyptian is married to a Westerner and the child is born in Egypt, I believe the child can be Egyptian, but generally citizenship laws are not progressive in the region whether for Muslims or non-Muslims.
I don't know if major changes have been made in Qatar. I remember reading of an international soccer star getting citizenship. Are these countries Western Europe? Definitely not. Are some making some liberal changes? Yes, some are. You can't expect them to be like the US or Europe or half way at warp speed. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Justin, I was not intending to say that none of the mosques in America preach against the US Government. |
Indeed not, but you asked Bigverne how he knows that it, in his words very often, takes place and the evidence is well-known. It then becomes a question of how many. Personally, I'd have every single mosque under intense surveillance.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Anyway, if they want to criticize the US Government that's fine, but within bounds. Saying that they all pretty much do that I think is a stretch. |
It probably is a stretch, but I don't recall that claim being made.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| As far as a reformation of the Muslim world, a step in the right direction or a few steps are not the final destination, but you never arrive at the destination if you don't bother taking the steps. I appreciate any steps at openness whether it is in Saudi Arabia, Burma, Mississippi, Nigeria, Israel, Jordan, or China. |
If Islamic theocracies liberalize, then excellent, but our main priority should be liberalization of Muslims living in the West. Sharia is in clear tension with Western law on....
* monogamy
* divorce
* rights of women
* custody of children
* laws of inheritance and evidence
* freedom of belief and expression
* blasphemy and apostasy
Nobody should be allowed to faithfully observe the above in the West. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Are these countries Western Europe? |
No, they are not, quite obviously, yet the OP is trying to make a ludicrous comparison between this situation to the position of Muslims in the West. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| They are only comparable if the legal status of such people is the same as Muslims in the West |
One step at a time, my boy. One step at a time.
Why your reluctance to see this as a step in the right direction? Shouldn't you be celebrating in the streets?
| Quote: |
| Good job you didn't use a capital 'R' because we've a long way to go before that. |
Actually, their reformation is well under way. The Moslem world is smack in the middle of it. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| The Protestant Reformation was a radical, wholesale, ideological change from the inferior version of Christianity that gave Europe the Middle Ages. Where can one observe the like - massive and state-sponsored liberalization - occurring within Islam? |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| The Protestant Reformation was a radical, wholesale, ideological change from the inferior version of Christianity that gave Europe the Middle Ages. Where can one observe the like - massive and state-sponsored liberalization - occurring within Islam? |
Wouldn't want to blame any of those nice literate barbarian tribes or vikings for any of the dark ages would we? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| The break from the Medieval to the modern world occurred via the Reformation and the Renaissance. It radically altered Europe, wholesale. Where can one observe an analogous schism in the Middle East? The only (remote) parallel observable is the war within Islam (Iraq the epicenter) which is barbarism vs barbarism based on a schism regarding Muhammad. But where is the massive ideological break from one thing into another? The position that a reformation (with a capital 'r') is taking place is....I dunno, pathetic. The position has succeeded in rendering me speechless via its ineptitude. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Let's see...how many Moslem states are secular? Hmmm...Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Pakistan... |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| I haven't the patience to check whether those states actually are officially secular. It doesn't matter. Are they de facto secular? And - lest red herrings be introduced - how does your assertion suggest a reformation is occuring akin to the Protestant Reformation? Where is the wholesale, mass radicalization and liberalization of Islam akin to what took place during the Reformation? |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| The break from the Medieval to the modern world occurred via the Reformation and the Renaissance. It radically altered Europe, wholesale. Where can one observe an analogous schism in the Middle East? The only (remote) parallel observable is the war within Islam (Iraq the epicenter) which is barbarism vs barbarism based on a schism regarding Muhammad. But where is the massive ideological break from one thing into another? The position that a reformation (with a capital 'r') is taking place is....I dunno, pathetic. The position has succeeded in rendering me speechless via its ineptitude. |
Thats total nonsense for anyone and even a basic knowledge of the history of Islam would refute that. The Umayyad to the Abassid to the Ottomans. The Islam world was the leader in science for the majority of the time since the death of Christ. Granada (A Muslim city) was the centre of culture for the whole of Europe. If anyone wanted a book made they had to get it from Al Andalus.
So there three major schism in Islamic history. I suppose the equivalent of the renaissance would be the move from the hedonistic Umayyad to the scientifc Abassid. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| The break from the Medieval to the modern world occurred via the Reformation and the Renaissance. It radically altered Europe, wholesale. Where can one observe an analogous schism in the Middle East? The only (remote) parallel observable is the war within Islam (Iraq the epicenter) which is barbarism vs barbarism based on a schism regarding Muhammad. But where is the massive ideological break from one thing into another? The position that a reformation (with a capital 'r') is taking place is....I dunno, pathetic. The position has succeeded in rendering me speechless via its ineptitude. |
Thats total nonsense for anyone and even a basic knowledge of the history of Islam would refute that. The Umayyad to the Abassid to the Ottomans. The Islam world was the leader in science for the majority of the time since the death of Christ. Granada (A Muslim city) was the centre of culture for the whole of Europe. If anyone wanted a book made they had to get it from Al Andalus.
So there three major schism in Islamic history. I suppose the equivalent of the renaissance would be the move from the hedonistic Umayyad to the scientifc Abassid. |
Can you demonstrate wholesale liberalization of Islam, anywhere, akin to the Protestant Reformation that is relevant to the modern era?
Last edited by Justin Hale on Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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