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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| What conclusion do you, personally, suggest I draw from that wiki link? How does that wiki link affect the 2008 world? How does that wiki link support the view that there is radical, systematic, divisive and state-sponsored change occurring in the Middle East as occurred in Europe during the break from the Dark Ages to modernity? |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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It does appear FROM HISTORY that Islam does not have to be ,de facto, a religon of primitivism, violence, and culture war. At the same time, it has certainly been so for the vast part of the century. I blame Iran and Saudi, but they have 1)the money and 2)the power. Also Saudi has Mecca and Medina and rocks the whole "pope of the islamic world".
-Yet I agree that all attempts to liberalize or modernize islam will fail because without Saudi or Iranian backing...Sunni or Shi'a will not accept any new 'dogma' as a good idea, or binding. Lastly, Jesus said "turn the other cheek" although people have butchered each other over Christianity, its not like you can argue violence is a good thing in christianity. Islam is a little more open, by definition, to killing people. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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"Howard R. Turner writes: "Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together created a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent"
That Islam in history hasn't been inflexible and opposed to change and liberalisation and in fact it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. That the Islamic world also went through a reformation period which is directly comparable to the Christian reformation.
"Ethics
Main articles: Islamic ethics and Early reforms under Islam
Further information: Islamic democracy and Constitution of Medina
Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[10][11]
Religious freedom, though limited, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[12]
"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!
The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[13] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection " |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Let's see...how many Moslem states are secular? Hmmm...Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Pakistan... |
And how many of those states are tolerant, functioning democracies? That's right, one. And that state is only secular because Atarturk was virulently anti-Islamic, knew that the average conservative Turkish peasant could not be trusted with democracy, and that Islam had to be contained with force.
By the way, get rid of the military dictatorships in Egypt, Algeria and Syria and you have democratic Shariah waiting to happen, and all the apostate killing, jihad mongering you could possibly hope for. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| That the Islamic world also went through a reformation period which is directly comparable to the Christian reformation. |
When people within Islam start challenging the notion of Shariah Law, and begin to assert that religion is a purely personal choice, and that changing ones religion should not result in death, then we may be onto something.
Of course, those talking of a 'reformation' underplay the fact that the Koran cannot be reformed, as it is the immutable word of Allah, a fact that almost all Islamic clerics recognise. Moreover, it is also a fact that according to Islamic theology, the more peaceful 'let there be no compulsion in religion' verses are 'abrogated' by the latter 'slay the infidels' verses. Of course, it is much better to repeat the 'let there be no compulsion' stuff to the ignorant infidels, so that they can continue with their 'inter-faith' dialogue fantasies. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| That the Islamic world also went through a reformation period which is directly comparable to the Christian reformation. |
When people within Islam start challenging the notion of Shariah Law, and begin to assert that religion is a purely personal choice, and that changing ones religion should not result in death, then we may be onto something.
Of course, those talking of a 'reformation' underplay the fact that the Koran cannot be reformed, as it is the immutable word of Allah, a fact that almost all Islamic clerics recognise. Moreover, it is also a fact that according to Islamic theology, the more peaceful 'let there be no compulsion in religion' verses are 'abrogated' by the latter 'slay the infidels' verses. Of course, it is much better to repeat the 'let there be no compulsion' stuff to the ignorant infidels, so that they can continue with their 'inter-faith' dialogue fantasies. |
I think the above post is fair in many ways. Can't you challenge Shariah law with different interpretations? I mean Islam was not necessarily looked at the same way all the time by all Muslims by people such Al Farabi, or Avicenna who helped contribute to European rising from the Middle Ages while Islam then abandoned the philosophers and went into the Middle Ages, so to speak, instead of Europe.
As far as the no-compulsion part, the good thing is that many Muslims often quote it as an example of how their religion is tolerant. That is good in the sense that many believe in tolerance. However, the laws of the country don't quite reflect those moderate views, though there was some recent liberal movement in Egypt on that matter from what I read on BBC. You do bring up an interesting point about abrogating stuff.
The no compulsion verse came at a time when the Prophet Mohammed was not powerful military and I believe the words go like this "I don't worship what you worship nor do you worship what I worship, you have your religion, and I have my religion, there is no compulsion in religion".
A person looking at it from a political point of view said at a certain time would view it as the Muslim leader dealing with powerful pagans from his own tribe wanting his followers to be pagans and the Muslims resisting that and telling the pagans to leave them be. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As far as the no-compulsion part, the good thing is that many Muslims often quote it as an example of how their religion is tolerant. |
No, most Muslims quote it to try and assuage infidels fears of Islam, even though most of them know that it is not the last word on the matter, and is in direct contradiction with Mohammed's later pronouncements and Shariah Law. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: ... |
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| How many Muslims do you know? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
"Howard R. Turner writes: "Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together created a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent"
That Islam in history hasn't been inflexible and opposed to change and liberalisation and in fact it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. That the Islamic world also went through a reformation period which is directly comparable to the Christian reformation.
"Ethics
Main articles: Islamic ethics and Early reforms under Islam
Further information: Islamic democracy and Constitution of Medina
Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[10][11]
Religious freedom, though limited, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[12]
"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!
The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[13] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection " |
Absolutely nothing in the above is evidence that in 2008 there is a movement in the Middle East taking place akin to the Earth-shattering paradigm shift that was the Protestant Reformation. The latter position is exaggeration and wishful thinking.
| Big Verne wrote: |
When people within Islam start challenging the notion of Shariah Law, and begin to assert that religion is a purely personal choice, and that changing ones religion should not result in death, then we may be onto something.
Of course, those talking of a 'reformation' underplay the fact that the Koran cannot be reformed, as it is the immutable word of Allah, a fact that almost all Islamic clerics recognise. Moreover, it is also a fact that according to Islamic theology, the more peaceful 'let there be no compulsion in religion' verses are 'abrogated' by the latter 'slay the infidels' verses. Of course, it is much better to repeat the 'let there be no compulsion' stuff to the ignorant infidels, so that they can continue with their 'inter-faith' dialogue fantasies. |
That's right. There's plenty of good stuff in Koran and plenty of bad stuff. Like the Bible, it's an internally incoherent body of information and the reason for that is obvious: it was devised by Medieval lunatics and is in no way connected with a God. In consequence, people can pick and choose....the terrorists choose the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff, liberal Muslims the opposite. The question becomes therefore....by what standards does one pick and choose? The latter question is sufficient to render religion invalid, since if one has the ability to pick and choose from the Bible/Koran, evidently our moral and rational sense predates these stupid books and faiths.
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| How many Muslims do you know? |
None at the moment, thank goodness, but I taught Muslims when I did teacher training and attended schools with minority Muslim attendance. My mother, also a teacher, taught at a majority Muslim school for 20 years. I've met Muslim doctors many times who refuse to help opioid and barbiturate addicts, bringing as they do their intolerant and base beliefs into Western societies. As a result of my experienc with Muslims, my subscription to atheism, science and evolution, my oppsition to Left Wing sanctimonious, erroneous and downright deadly dogma, my position towards Islam is one of zero tolerance. In any case, how many Muslims one knows is of no importance at all. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How many Muslims do you know? |
Probably many more than you, although I fail to see what that has to do with a debate about any 'Islamic reformation'. Why not join in the debate, instead of introducing irrelevant points such as that. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Justin Hale"]
| pugwall wrote: |
"Howard R. Turner writes: "Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together created a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent"
That Islam in history hasn't been inflexible and opposed to change and liberalisation and in fact it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. That the Islamic world also went through a reformation period which is directly comparable to the Christian reformation.
"Ethics
Main articles: Islamic ethics and Early reforms under Islam
Further information: Islamic democracy and Constitution of Medina
Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[10][11]
Religious freedom, though limited, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[12]
"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!
The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[13] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection " |
Absolutely nothing in the above is evidence that in 2008 there is a movement in the Middle East taking place akin to the Earth-shattering paradigm shift that was the Protestant Reformation. The latter position is exaggeration and wishful thinking.
Sorry you've moved the goalposts. I can't be bothered to discuss this any more. Islam obviously did go through an earth shattering(in your words) reformation in the middle ages which you said that it never has. You are wrong. The protestant reformation didn't happen in 2008 either. I can't be bothered to talk about this anymore. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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I have moved the goalposts? Well, what was the original claim? The original claim is that there is a reformation occurring in Islam....now! Well, there is (1) some reformation (lower case 'r') in Islam now, but it isn't significant enough to merit any comparison whatsoever to the (2) Reformation and adherents should be careful to emphasize they advocate (1) and not (2) because the latter is just fundamentally false. Your introduction of this point that Islam has already undergone a reformation in the Middle Ages...well, that's what I call moving the goalposts, since it is of total irrelevance to the claim under scrutiny.
analogy:
1. A claims Christianity is going through a reformation (for example, in its attitude towards evolution and science)
2. B claims Christianity has already undergone a reformation (at the Protestant Reformation)
Absolute hooey. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Islam obviously did go through an earth shattering(in your words) reformation in the middle ages which you said that it never has |
And this 'earth shattering' reformation has not resulted in the abandonment of the Shariah, the acceptance of freedom of conscience, a movement away from Koranic literalism, or a review of the more 'problematic' elements of Mohammed's life.
In other words, when we consider the current state of Islam today, this reformation has had little positive or lasting impact, so why are you bringing it up? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How many Muslims do you know? |
Probably many more than you, although I fail to see what that has to do with a debate about any 'Islamic reformation'. Why not join in the debate, instead of introducing irrelevant points such as that. |
It does have relevance, because you told me above that Muslims simply use the no compulsion words only with non-Muslims and don't use in dicussions with each other, it is simply to assuage infidels. So, it is relevant to ask how well you really know the culture and the people.
I have spent time in Jordan, Egypt, and Kuwait. I can say I actually know the people from the horrible elements to their moderates. The moderates, in so many cases, do actually believe the no compulsion part and are proud of it.
As far as a reformation, it is said the Protestant reformation was influenced by Islam. I am not sure if that is true or not. What happened with the Muslim world as was stated earlier was that the liberal Sufis of the past once held sway in the various Islamic empires, but they were eclipsed by the more literal types. You don't seem to acknowledge this historical reality. I don't see why not?
As far as reformation, you seem to think that the Protestants just emerged over night. There were psychological, cultural seeds planted in Germany before princes went behind Martin Luther. It happened over many years of chafing under the power of the Roman Catholic Church.
These princes wanted more personal power, and some agreed with Martin Luther and he provided with his preaching a way for them to break away.
Can we really judge if there is a reformation occurring? We can't exactly. One may say that it appears there is one occuring with Egypt allowing Christians who converted to Islam recently to come back to Christianity, not forcing Bahais to either put Christian or Muslim on their ID cards, Turkey is giving more voice to the "heretical" Alevi sect in order to join the EU.
Granted, we only have the examples of Turkey and Egypt with some positive examples? Anything else? Well, in Lebanon the Sunni Muslims and the United States, are generally, politically on the same side, and many Lebanese Sunnis are quite moderate among Middle Eastern people. The Reformation had to start from somewhere and it started before Martin Luther was born in terms of the terrain becoming more and more ripe for change. You seem to think history is inorganic, and you are making a judgement with limited facts. We just know some places are making changes, so reforms are happening. Al Jazeera broadcast an atheist Syrian which is kind of interesting. The Middle East of the 1990
is not as conservative as that of 2008. I am sure many can admit that.
I am not going to claim major changes have happened. However, I welcome even small steps. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
How many Muslims do you know?
Probably many more than you, although I fail to see what that has to do with a debate about any 'Islamic reformation'. Why not join in the debate, instead of introducing irrelevant points such as that. |
Probably more? Have you ever lived in a Muslim country?
It certainly is relevant to this statement:
| Quote: |
| No, most Muslims quote it to try and assuage infidels fears of Islam, even though most of them know that it is not the last word on the matter, and is in direct contradiction with Mohammed's later pronouncements and Shariah Law. |
What (or rather who) is your "most Muslims" assessment based on? |
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