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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| It really isn't going to make any difference. Governments will do anything to maintain power. To think they wouldn't, would be erroneous. |
Apparently we need to "prove" that statement . To some people that seems to not be entirely obvious . They seem to believe that when powerful human beings are standing to lose control over trillions of dollars that they will simply lie down and let it happen . Apparently our beliefs that this is not consistant with human nature are "kooky" . These people obviously have no understanding of the entire history of this species and how things have always worked .
Not to mention they overlook obvious little factors such as that 1 in 10 people are sociopaths and that the type of person most likely to suceed in politics is a sociopath , and they have no idea of what this means they are capable of . They overlook at how power always corrupts and how much power these politicians actually wield . All the money that filters into society....ALL OF IT...is cycled through their grubby hands .
And given that it has always been the case that events have been manufactured to start wars and keep them fought , to gain power and the keep power , would it be so suprising if some event was manufactured involving the deaths of american civilians before or just after the next election ?
This would instantly stop any talk about bringing troops home and validate all the scaremonger propoganda the hawks have been feeding us . Do you really think somewhere in some office such an event is not being planned ? That would really amaze me . Remember we are talking about people who think nothing of the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq so that they could benefit from weapons and oil money....what's a few more thousands deaths ? Who's counting bodies when there are so many dollars to count ? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Benicio wrote: |
To the OP,
not all Republicans are the same.
As for the presidency, if there were no term limits, then 4 more years of Bush would just be friggin' awful. He is a disgrace.
John McCain is a completely different kind of Republican- far more moderate and he does not go around saying that he talks to God like Bush has done. McCain is actually somewhat intelligent and for more well spoken than Bush.
So to answer your question, if McCain wins the presidency, the next 4 years would not be like Bush.
Pull your head out! |
Indeed. McCain and Bush fundamentally differ on the environment and energy policy also...and other important things. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed. McCain and Bush fundamentally differ on the environment and energy policy also...and other important things. |
Who cares ? Was anyone truly stupid enough to ever believe George bush had any important part to play in any decisions the states made the past 8 years ? I see Bush bashing as beside the point . The agenda at play is much bigger than Bush...the politicians are pawns in it themselves who pander to big business and big money .Beyond that there are other big agendas at play ....the zionist agenda for example (say what you like , but there does exist a group of people in the states that manipulate the states into doing Israels bidding..I'm not saying they are evil or anything...but certainly the will to benefit from america's militiary to supress israels enemies exists and effects policies)...Bush's stupidity is well formulated and designed to stop you from thinking beyond "wow they guys are incompetent" .
If McCain wins I'll join Al Queda itself (Whoever "Al Queda" means ). I know the democrats in effect pander to the same big business and it won't make any difference .But at least in theory they see the war as a mistake . For America to vote repulican AGAIN would show me they in majority a people beyond redemption or hope . Give me some tnt . |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| And so? |
Do you understand that you have alleged that Al Jazeera takes its orders from the American govt? |
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Colorado
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Location: Public School with too much time on my hands.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| If we have another terrorist attack on American soil that costs American lives, we'll need to cancel the elections until such time as the safety of the American people can be assured. In the meantime, well just have to trust the President to do the right thing. Anyone who thinks otherwise is anti-American and is giving aid and comfort to the terrorists. |
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Lostone7
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Location: SE Asia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| What evidence can you offer? |
WOW.........That is the first smart statement I have read in weeks!
Thanks Gopher!! I though Korea had sucked out most peoples critical thinking skills
If i ever meet you I owe you a pint!
Oh and I am not knocking everyone else who had great input.
But
that one simple statement was perfect make OP look like a joke in 5 words! |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| that one simple statement was perfect make OP look like a joke in 5 words! |
You're the joke buddy . I never claimed to have evidence . The very wording of my post is a statement that it's a subjective opinion . Hence the whole "am I paranoid" part .
You fail .
But on that point , exactly what evidence would suffice for you to admit that the american government is at war because of weapons and oil money ? What evidence would convince you that the american government has previously manufactured events to go to war , or stay in a war ? You set the paramaters ok ? What a sweet deal I'm offering . What would I have to show you to convince you ?
I'm extremely interested to hear your answers . |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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In the spirit of fair play , I'll tell you what evidence I'd need to believe there are no conspiracies at play .
I'd need you to prove to me that the government went to war because they believed it would make the world safer , and that they really thought Iraq was a W.M.D threat . That they did it out of altruistic concern for the Iraqi people , like they now claimed . That individuals not directly involved with the decisions and planning of the war have in no way benefitted hugely financially from it . That Haliburton (who have profitted billions) and the likes profiting directly from ameican intervention in Iraq have no financial ties to policy makers or invested interest in war being started and continuing . That the huge profits from weapons and oil have been incidental and seperate from the agenda from which they went to war . I'd also need proof that america has never manufactured any evidence , or false flag event to get into war .Including a full debunking of all the thousands of documents , evidence and statements of people directly involved who claim they have done this OFTEN .
There . Don't let that distract you from providing your answer as to what "proof" you need . |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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"The increase in bin Laden tapes close to the election was orchestrated by republicans"
1. has there been an increase? he's always releasing tapes
2. the most recent tape was directed to europe
3. close to the election? the one that's 7 months away?
When somebody starts proposed conspiracy theories without any evidence, it's best to think of them as a confession rather than an accusation. That is to say, it says more about that person's pyschology than it does about any real events occuring in the world. This guy has a dim view of humanity, and I guess this is how he expresses it. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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I have noticed for a long time how the media always say "said to be the voice of Osama bin laden". There can be countless explanations for why it might not be his voice. Many people could want to immitate him. Also why not send a video to validate it is him ?
Enough reason for the media to just do a tiny bit of a thing I like to call "bjective journalism" instead of me having to come on the internet to read a headline " assuring me Bin Laden is making threats without question.
No , I'm sorry . You can't have it both ways . If you want me to believe everything written in the media without questioning or doubt , then you at least need to demonstrate to me that the media itself is credible and not in need of questioning. the reality of course is that the media is clearly not credible . So before you call me a "nut case" for questioning that which time after time has been proven to be distorted and fabricated (the media) , give it a little think through ok ?
You can't ask me for evidence and then back up your views via a media that never bothers to find evidence or validate their findings themselves . It just won't cut it . |
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Dome Vans
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Shortly after George W. Bush was appointed president by the Supreme Court, and up until 9/11/2001, Bush's job approval rating was dropping like a rock, from around 65% to under 50%, and his disapproval rating was skyrocketing, from under 14% to over 34%. Then, immediately after the terrorist attack on 9/11/2001, Bush's job approval rating shot up to over 90%, and since that time it has been steadily falling to its current all time low of 47%, with a record high disapproval rating of 50%. One recent poll I saw had 35% approving of the job Bush has been doing, which would be the lowest of any president ever. |
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| Bush�s highest job approval rating was in October 2001, when 90% approved of the job he was doing as president. |
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In 2001, Bush's approval rating among all adults stayed in the 50s in 16 of the 17 Gallup Polls conducted between March 9 and Sept. 11. (The president once reached 62 percent in April.) During most of that time, his ratings stayed between 55 percent and 57 percent. But by August, Bush's job approval was slipping, and it fell to a low of 51 percent in the last poll before Sept. 11. In the wake of the terrorist attacks, Bush's rating shot up to 86 percent, hit 90 percent in Gallup's Sept. 21-22 poll, then hovered between 86 percent and 89 percent for the rest of the year. |
http://fixco1.com/bushjobapproval.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/17/opinion/polls/main593849.shtml
http://www.cookpolitical.com/column/2002/032602.php
Very handy that. I remember pre 9/11 that Bush was massively unpopular both abroad and domestically. He was looking at a mediocre presidency before being voted out shortly after or booted out by popular opinion. Strange how things pan out.
Last edited by Dome Vans on Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Just hold yourselves to the same standards .People always want to come up a smug position of "you have no concrete evidence". You have no business discussing the matter of the validity of conspiracy theories if all you have to go on is "the media told me different". I can guarantee that none of you have gone to any lengths to obtain and validate any of the "concrete evidence" that media is based on. So if I'm not allowed to express an opinion that contradicts mainstream media based on the fact that I don't have water tight evidence to fully justify my suspicions , then you must also withhold your opinions for the same reason . |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
No , I'm sorry . You can't have it both ways . If you want me to believe everything written in the media without questioning or doubt , then you at least need to demonstrate to me that the media itself is credible and not in need of questioning. |
You do what every conspiracy theorist does, which is to hold conventional sources of information (the reviled media) to the highest standards of truth while basing your theories on vague hunches about "human nature". I'm sorry but YOU can't have it both ways either. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| ...the media always say "said to be the voice of Osama bin laden". |
Responsible journalism. Also, my understanding is that usually an expert source like CIA will authenticate the recording if not the voice. We usually deal in probabilities and never certainties. Responsible journalists, then, repeat these disclaimers.
And I, for one, am satisfied that we are most probably hearing bin Laden's voice and message through these recordings -- recordings that his organization chooses to release when it does, and through Al Jazeera for its own reasons. Maybe this one has more to do with the Iraqi War's fifth anniversary than the still far away American presidential election?
In any case, one major theoretical problem with conspiracy theorists, and you are evincing this here in full force today, is that, in their U.S.-centric myopia, they tend to deny historical agency to everyone in the world but the United States govt. And the world simply does not work that way. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| You do what every conspiracy theorist does, which is to hold conventional sources of information (the reviled media) to the highest standards of truth while basing your theories on vague hunches about "human nature". I'm sorry but YOU can't have it both ways either. |
Good . So you concede that point and the high ground . You don't hold the media to the same standards of truth yet still perpetuate the belief systems they propagate . Your faith in the media ,if you know it or not , is based on your little view of human nature . Sadly if it comes down the validity of world views , we have centuries of history of ongoing human oppression by those in power over the masses that supports my world view .
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Also, my understanding is that usually an expert source like CIA will authenticate the recording if not the voice. We usually deal in probabilities and never certainties. Responsible journalists, then, repeat these disclaimers.
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You'd think so .Do you have any actual evidence that the CIA authenticated it ? Do you have any reason to trust the CIA without question ? Do you have any reason to believe the journalists are getting this information about authentication from a credible source ?
When you break it down there's no reason at all for you as the layman to invest your faith in the media's version of events . The media stand on some lawn somewhere and some government official comes out and gives an official statement and that's as far as it goes. Beyond that the media can tell you nothing of what's going on. I just mention that in response to these smug wollies who think I need hard proof before I can question anything .
Ps : Don't think that means there isn't proof. i'm still waiting for people to tell me what it would tak to convince them that the government is opperating with a different agenda to what they would have you believe . come on...let me hear it....what specific proof would you need to convince you ?
If you are struggling to answer that question , I hope the inherant bias in your thinking is more clear .
Last edited by bovinerebel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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