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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: waiting for the other wooden shoe to drop |
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23757212
From the AP
Here's a portion of the article:
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updated 2:09 p.m. ET March 22, 2008
AMSTERDAM - Thousands of demonstrators crowded Amsterdam's central square Saturday, braving wind and sleet to show their opposition to anti-immigration lawmaker Geert Wilders.
The protest, called "Netherlands Shows Its Colors," is primarily a reaction in advance to the short film Wilders said he will release later this month criticizing the Koran as a "fascist" book.
One protester carried a sign saying "standing together against the right wing populist witch-hunt."
"I'm very much against Geert Wilders and racism in general, but I think it's really important to show not only Holland but the rest of the world that there's a lot of people who do not agree with his ideas," Elisa Trepp said.
Wilders, who said he is not racist, heads a reactionary party with nine seats in the 150-member Dutch parliament, elected on an anti-immigration platform.
While the exact contents of his 15-minute movie, due to be released by March 31, remain unknown, Wilders has said it will underscore his view that Islam's holy book is fascist.
Dutch officials fear the movie could spark violent protests in Muslim countries, similar to those two years ago after the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.
Dutch level threat rises over Koran film
But no prominent politicians were among the 2,000-3,000 people who police estimated turned up for the demonstration, to the frustration of some attendees.
"The government could really do something. That's in the interest of the country � stop him, just stop him," said Hassan Iaeti, who traveled hours from the far south of the country to attend.
He said he believed Wilders is abusing the right of freedom of speech, which he said has limits.
"You can criticize Muslims themselves, but not their religion and not our prophet � that's our belief."
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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There is an excellent book out there (I found mine at Jamshil Kyobo) called 'Murder in Amsterdam: Liberal Europe, Islam, and the Limits of Tolerance' by Ian Buruma. He's half-Dutch, half-British.
'Murder in Amsterdam' is indispensable. Buruma delivers the most fruitful insights on the 'clash' between the East and West today. Why? Because he finds connections and complexity where most observers only see irreconcilable conflict." San Francisco Chronicle
"Ian Buruma addresses questions of political philosophy, moral accountability and mass psychology in the most rigorous possible way: journalistically...He has deftly combined interviewing and reflection. This proves a fruitful way to approach the murder, in 2004, of the film-maker Theo van Gogh." The New York Times Book Review
"Buruma is one of the planet's wisest heads and best writers about the politics of national identity, civilization, and culture. With the eye of a novelist and the erudition of a scholar, he finds in the frenzy of soccer fans no less than the history of the last several centuries an explanation for the violence that has erupted in the land of Rembrandt and tulips. This is a book about much more than a single crime in a single city. It is a brilliant insight into what ails Europe and, more broadly, our globalized world." Strobe Talbot, president, Brookings Institution |
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Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003 Location: University of Western Chile
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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"You can criticize Muslims themselves, but not their religion and not our prophet..." |
Don't criticize Islam. Got it. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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"You can criticize Muslims themselves, but not their religion and not our prophet..." |
Sounds like someone is dictating to the world what they "can" & "cannot" do.
It's strange.
I'll never had a problem with a single Muslim i've met personally.
Still i regard Islam & Mohamed both as major violent frauds.
Exactly the OPPOSITE view as to what some would like us to hold.
Hmmmmmm ...
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
There is an excellent book out there (I found mine at Jamshil Kyobo) called 'Murder in Amsterdam: Liberal Europe, Islam, and the Limits of Tolerance' by Ian Buruma. He's half-Dutch, half-British.
'Murder in Amsterdam' is indispensable. Buruma delivers the most fruitful insights on the 'clash' between the East and West today. Why? Because he finds connections and complexity where most observers only see irreconcilable conflict." San Francisco Chronicle
"Ian Buruma addresses questions of political philosophy, moral accountability and mass psychology in the most rigorous possible way: journalistically...He has deftly combined interviewing and reflection. This proves a fruitful way to approach the murder, in 2004, of the film-maker Theo van Gogh." The New York Times Book Review
"Buruma is one of the planet's wisest heads and best writers about the politics of national identity, civilization, and culture. With the eye of a novelist and the erudition of a scholar, he finds in the frenzy of soccer fans no less than the history of the last several centuries an explanation for the violence that has erupted in the land of Rembrandt and tulips. This is a book about much more than a single crime in a single city. It is a brilliant insight into what ails Europe and, more broadly, our globalized world." Strobe Talbot, president, Brookings Institution |
That does sound good. How often do you make it into Seoul, Ya-ta? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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I've been living in Seongnam since Jan '07. When I venture out, I go to Ya-tap or maybe Jamshil. Rarely bother with north of the river. Why? |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I've been living in Seongnam since Jan '07. When I venture out, I go to Ya-tap or maybe Jamshil. Rarely bother with north of the river. Why? |
No reason. Just thought I remembered you posting about a hero's welcome in a small town and wondered how much of a hassle it was to get to Seoul. I might be confused, though. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Muslim Baptized By Pope Says Life In Danger
By Philip Pullella
Sun Mar 23, 2:35 PM ET
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A Muslim author and critic of Islamic fundamentalism who was baptized a Catholic by Pope Benedict said on Sunday Islam is "physiologically violent" and he is now in great danger because of his conversion.
"I realize what I am going up against but I will confront my fate with my head high, with my back straight and the interior strength of one who is certain about his faith," said Magdi Allam.
In a surprise move on Saturday night, the pope baptized the 55-year-old, Egyptian-born Allam at an Easter eve service in St Peter's Basilica that was broadcast around the world.
The conversion of Allam to Christianity -- he took the name "Christian" for his baptism -- was kept secret until the Vatican disclosed it in a statement less than an hour before it began.
Writing in Sunday's edition of the leading Corriere della Sera, the newspaper of which he is a deputy director, Allam said: "... the root of evil is innate in an Islam that is physiologically violent and historically conflictual."
Allam, who is a strong supporter of Israel and who an Israeli newspaper once called a "Muslim Zionist," has lived under police protection following threats against him, particularly after he criticized Iran's position on Israel.
He said before converting he had continually asked himself why someone who had struggled for what he called "moderate Islam" was then "condemned to death in the name of Islam and on the basis of a Koranic legitimization."
His conversion, which he called "the happiest day of my life," came just two days after *cough* al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden accused the pope of being part of a "new crusade" against Islam.
The Vatican appeared to be at pains to head off criticism from the Islamic world about the conversion.
"Conversion is a private matter, a personal thing and we hope that the baptism will not be interpreted negatively by Islam," Cardinal Giovanni Re told an Italian newspaper.
Still, Allam's highly public baptism by the pope shocked Italy's Muslim community, with some leaders openly questioning why the Vatican chose to shine such a big spotlight it.
"What amazes me is the high profile the Vatican has given this conversion," Yaha Sergio Yahe Pallavicini, vice-president of the Italian Islamic Religious Community, told Reuters. "Why could he have not done this in his local parish?"
ANOTHER DEATH SENTENCE
Allam, the author of numerous books, said he realized that his conversion would likely procure him "another death sentence for apostasy," or the abandoning of one's faith.
But he said he was willing to risk it because he had "finally seen the light, thanks to divine grace."
Allam defended the pope in 2006 when the pontiff made a speech in Regensburg, Germany, that many Muslims perceived as depicting Islam as a violent faith.
He said he made his decision to convert after years of deep soul searching and asserted that the Catholic Church has been "too prudent about conversions of Muslims."
At a Sunday morning Easter mass hours after he baptized Allam, the pope, without mentioning him, spoke in a prayer of the continuing "miracle" of conversion to Christianity some 2,000 years after Christ's resurrection.
The Vatican statement announcing Allam's conversion said: "For the Catholic Church, each person who asks to receive Baptism after a deep personal search, a fully free choice and adequate preparation, has a right to receive it."
It said all newcomers to the faith were "equally important before God's love and welcome in the community of the Church."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080323/wl_nm/pope_muslim_dc
;_ylt=AufhGQ_y9vVXaN4WLi37oqADW7oF |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Just thought I remembered you posting about a hero's welcome in a small town and wondered how much of a hassle it was to get to Seoul. I might be confused, though. |
You could have read about that. That was in '05-'06 when I lived in a really small town out between Daegu and Masan. One of the amazing things about that place was that it had 3 buses a day direct to Seoul. It was easier to get to downtown Seoul from there than it is from where I'm living now. As it is now, I have to wait for the one bus an hour, ride it to the end of the line, walk about half a mile and then catch the subway. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the latest on the film (due out next Monday):
Internet Service Provider Shuts Down Website for Posting Anti-Islamic Dutch Film
A U.S.-based Internet service provider has closed down a Web site that a Dutch lawmaker had reserved to post a controversial film that is triggering an uproar in much of the Islamic world.
Network Solutions says it invoked the suspension after receiving complaints related to the film. A statement posted on the Internet says those complaints are under investigation
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200803/200803240025.html
No doubt the anti-Moslem element among us will be yelling censorship. I don't see it that way. Any 'publisher' has a right to accept and reject a work and this is no different. |
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TexasPete
Joined: 24 May 2006 Location: Koreatown
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I HATE the argument that somehow religion is off limits in regards to freedom of speech. If you can't defend your religion in the face of criticism, what's that say about the strength of your faith? |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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TexasPete wrote: |
I HATE the argument that somehow religion is off limits in regards to freedom of speech.
If you can't defend your religion in the face of criticism, what's that say about the strength of your faith? |
How does censorship = debate?
Indeed, this does say a lot ... about more than simply one's "faith".
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if people cannot see how racial conflict (or intended racial conflict) will be used to justify more and more authoritarian legislation and fascism ... then you're all lost and falling into the planned dialectic hook line and sinker. |
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Personally I stand for everything I've stated on the racial (/muslim) matters and I am willing to debate further and defend my views.
[...]
...and were I president of the USA I'd immediately expel all 30 million illegal immigrants out of the country and focus on taking care of the country's (legal) citizens. But I guess that makes me a racist? |
sigh...
both Muslims and Mexicans are being used to facilitate economic and social globalization...the leaders of America and Europe are orchestrating the foreign masses to come in because it's...
1) good for the unstable economies (whose fluctuations they control, mind you)
2) the ensuing social upheaval, will require more authoritarian legislation to be enacted
the dichotomy they're playing on is immigrants vs nationalists. the PTB influence and manipulate cultures
... and the problem of the coming culture clash will result with fascist solutions |
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TexasPete
Joined: 24 May 2006 Location: Koreatown
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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igotthisguitar wrote: |
TexasPete wrote: |
I HATE the argument that somehow religion is off limits in regards to freedom of speech.
If you can't defend your religion in the face of criticism, what's that say about the strength of your faith? |
How does censorship = debate?
Indeed, this does say a lot ... about more than simply one's "faith".
Quote: |
if people cannot see how racial conflict (or intended racial conflict) will be used to justify more and more authoritarian legislation and fascism
... then you're all lost and falling into the planned dialectic hook line and sinker. |
Quote: |
Quote: |
Personally I stand for everything I've stated on the racial (/muslim) matters and I am willing to debate further and defend my views.
[...]
...and were I president of the USA I'd immediately expel all 30 million illegal immigrants out of the country and focus on taking care of the country's (legal) citizens. But I guess that makes me a racist? |
sigh...
both Muslims and Mexicans are being used to facilitate economic and social globalization...the leaders of America and Europe are orchestrating the foreign masses to come in because it's...
1) good for the unstable economies (whose fluctuations they control, mind you)
2) the ensuing social upheaval, will require more authoritarian legislation to be enacted
the dichotomy they're playing on is immigrants vs nationalists. the PTB influence and manipulate cultures
... and the problem of the coming culture clash will result with fascist solutions |
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You misunderstand me. Plenty of people have said that they're, "All for freedom of speech, but it should have some limits" and 99% of those people are talking about religion when they speak of the "limits". I'm saying that's ridiculous and that if you faith is shaken by criticism and you find yourself unable to defend it, you probably don't have much faith to begin with. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Y'know, while i may be way off base here, the concept of "debating" Islam is likely quite foreign to most radical Muslims  |
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