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Funkdafied
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| You know what, the Westerners are right in many cases when they complain, but so are the Muslims, and they have to come to a meeting point. That's the sane way to do things. |
The Muslim complaints are NOT sane, thier comlaint is basically that we exist. Coming to a meeting point with them is not sane either. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer:
You're still spouting the classic liberal line, i.e. we can always negotiate with the enemy. We are the enemy to the Islamofascists; the terms of surrender are not negotiable. Do you get that much? Moreover, they see it as ordained by Allah to fight for this cause. I don't hear Western leaders saying that they are doing God's work by going to war. How you can equate fighting against Serbian ethnic cleansing with suicide bombing is beyond me. And let's not forget, the Islamofascists do not operate on consensus of public opinion, nor even as national government bodies (though they are certainly encouraged and endorsed by Iran and Syria).
wannago opined:
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| While I only taught high school for 15 years, I have been teaching in the Middle East for 4 years...and I disagree with you. I know for a fact that they have more ijits than we do. While we may have more advanced educational facilities, they could have much better, but WILLINGLY choose to not. If you have never been in a classroom of Arab boys, you have NO idea. With the Enlightenment crack, they have all the trappings of this modern world (new cars, the latest mobiles, satellite tv with the latest in porn), yet NONE of the responsibility. They have no more excuses than do we, so please quit trying to provide lame ones for them. |
Very well put, but don't expect Adventurer to stop sniffing his cigar long enough to grasp your meaning. I can't imagine what it must have been like teaching a class of Arab boys. |
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Thwartley
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I don't hear Western leaders saying that they are doing God's work by going to war. |
I don't think you're listening too closely. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Thwartley wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I don't hear Western leaders saying that they are doing God's work by going to war. |
I don't think you're listening too closely. |
Steve, thinks I don't get it, but I do know Bush has invoked God and so did Tony Blair. Unless, I lost all ability to speak and listen to English on TV, that's what I heard. Also, Bush was pandering to the Christian Right and they are tied to Messianic views which are tied to Israel, so I think I will go back to this humanity has a collective insanity, but more need to see it for what it is... It is not about a classic liberal line. The world has been messed with over and over. Anyway, didn't Jesus say "Bless-ed are the peacemakers......". This is not about negotiating with terrorists, but seeing the view points of all sides so people can actually stop the insanity. If you don't mind your kids dying, I certainly don't want my relatives or friends dying, because people don't want to deal with each other and just want to build thousands of Berlin Walls. As far as teaching Arab kids, I spent 4 months doing that as a volunteer and it wasn't worse than teaching kids in Dallas, I will tell you that. Plus, there is a problem with saying I taught Arab kids when you are dealing with 22 countries. It would be like me saying I taught European kids. Wow! Does that mean you taught Polish kids or German kids. News flash, people aren't that black and white....
Also wasn't there some general who made a bunch of commotion when he invoked God? I don't think you can discount religion from American politics and foreign policy.
As far as Serbia, I didn't hear the Orthodox Church there really condemn what the soldiers were doing when they killed 100,000 Bosnians.
I think it's a fair comment. The Muslim radicals have explosive bombs jackets, and IEDs. But, it has been shown many Western leaders and politicians have been a danger in this world in the past 100 years.
This irrefutable. How about people working for solutions instead of finger pointing only? |
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Funkdafied
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| This is not about negotiating with terrorists, but seeing the view points of all sides |
How about when thier view point is that we must die because we're infidels? How about when thier view point is that a Caliphate must be established? How about when thier viewpoint is that they want to immigrate to western countries in huge numbers but refuse to assimilate. How about when they want to live in the UK and enjoy all it's benefits while planning and plotting the violent overthrow of the west?
When the veiwpoints are this unpallettable and uncompromising then "seeing all view points" is not going to do much for you. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Funkdafied wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This is not about negotiating with terrorists, but seeing the view points of all sides |
How about when thier view point is that we must die because we're infidels? How about when thier view point is that a Caliphate must be established? How about when thier viewpoint is that they want to immigrate to western countries in huge numbers but refuse to assimilate. How about when they want to live in the UK and enjoy all it's benefits while planning and plotting the violent overthrow of the west?
When the veiwpoints are this unpallettable and uncompromising then "seeing all view points" is not going to do much for you. |
When you say their view, that should refer to Muslims who are thinking along those lines. The polls that came from the Peer Review seems to indicate many Muslims from Turkey in Germany and other Muslims don't particularly fit that view. How about seeing the Turks in Germany who don't really care about a caliphate. How do you know Turks in Germany don't want to assimilate? What survey did you conduct?
They speak fluent German and have been there for a long time. As far as the U.K., they have a heavier Pakistani population, not a Turkish population per se. Pakistanis are far more conservative than Turks who are a mixture of converted Greeks, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians, Arabs, Persians, and the original Turks. Even with the Pakistani or South Asians being, on average, more conservative the majority of South Asian citizens of the UK are against fanatics, but a simple open-door policy for all Muslim immigrants from South Asia is not prudent for the US or the U.K., and the US is making Pakistani immigrants go through a lot of background checks.
France has North Africans, not really Pakistanis. The majority, there, too view themselves as French people first. However, many terrorists of North African background did come from France and killed people in Iraq and also the head of the Northern Alliance (General Mesud) while posing as journalists. The extremists are a problem.
What should be done? Be more choosy about who gets in, watch the mosques, have Arab and Pakistani agents on the payroll, have their insistence in rounding up terrorists as was done in Toronto, Canada, and ensure there are no burkas in school. Do you think the headscarf ban should be introduced in the UK as it was in France. I don't object to it, but some posters might. I could go either way on the issue. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Do you think the headscarf ban should be introduced in the UK as it was in France. |
I would tend to view the headscarf ban within the long-standing French tradition of interventionist secularism, which, it could be argued, has served France well since at least the aftermath of the Dreyfus Affair. They're fairly even-handed in enforcing the prohibition of religion in state institutions, and I'm not sure that it would really be fair to allow Muslims an exemption.
The UK, on the other hand, has a tradition of accomadating religion, most notably through the Church Of England and religious instruction in schools, but also including religious symbolism on the national flag etc. So, within that tradition, it would seem to make sense to accomadate Muslim sensibilities as well.
And of course accomadation of religion, in the long run, usually means co-optation, thus limiting the social if not legal power of religious groups to carry out an agenda independent of what the state wishes. |
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Funkdafied
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Funkdafied wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This is not about negotiating with terrorists, but seeing the view points of all sides |
How about when thier view point is that we must die because we're infidels? How about when thier view point is that a Caliphate must be established? How about when thier viewpoint is that they want to immigrate to western countries in huge numbers but refuse to assimilate. How about when they want to live in the UK and enjoy all it's benefits while planning and plotting the violent overthrow of the west?
When the veiwpoints are this unpallettable and uncompromising then "seeing all view points" is not going to do much for you. |
When you say their view, that should refer to Muslims who are thinking along those lines. The polls that came from the Peer Review seems to indicate many Muslims from Turkey in Germany and other Muslims don't particularly fit that view. How about seeing the Turks in Germany who don't really care about a caliphate. How do you know Turks in Germany don't want to assimilate? What survey did you conduct?
They speak fluent German and have been there for a long time. As far as the U.K., they have a heavier Pakistani population, not a Turkish population per se. Pakistanis are far more conservative than Turks who are a mixture of converted Greeks, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians, Arabs, Persians, and the original Turks. Even with the Pakistani or South Asians being, on average, more conservative the majority of South Asian citizens of the UK are against fanatics, but a simple open-door policy for all Muslim immigrants from South Asia is not prudent for the US or the U.K., and the US is making Pakistani immigrants go through a lot of background checks.
France has North Africans, not really Pakistanis. The majority, there, too view themselves as French people first. However, many terrorists of North African background did come from France and killed people in Iraq and also the head of the Northern Alliance (General Mesud) while posing as journalists. The extremists are a problem.
What should be done? Be more choosy about who gets in, watch the mosques, have Arab and Pakistani agents on the payroll, have their insistence in rounding up terrorists as was done in Toronto, Canada, and ensure there are no burkas in school. Do you think the headscarf ban should be introduced in the UK as it was in France. I don't object to it, but some posters might. I could go either way on the issue. |
Sinse the title of the thread includes the word "Islamofascist" we can presume that the discussion is about Islamofascists, not other Muslims who are not Islamofascists. Seems reasonable, yes? So the fact that you can point to a bunch of Muslims in certain areas that are not fascist is neither here nor there. We are talking, in this thread, about Islamofascists, and there is no "seeing thier point of view" that will do any good. The way to approach them is to destroy them. |
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Geckoman
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: The Link You Provide Does Not Work! |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Check it out at:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
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That link is no longer good.
It was briefly up at that link but LiveLeak.com, the one's running it, were forced to take it down for their own safety due to threats to their staff.
At that link where the movie used to be, now instead is a clip in which LiveLeak explains why they had to pull it.
Read and watch about that case at this CNN article:
�Film Critical of Islam Dropped from Web Site�
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/03/28/fitna.reaction/index.html
To watch the movie go to:
"WATCH FITNA HERE!"
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=118187&highlight=
Last edited by Geckoman on Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer imagined:
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| Steve, thinks I don't get it, but I do know Bush has invoked God and so did Tony Blair |
Were you hatched in a big bird's nest?
Gimme a break: invoking God in the manner they did is not the same as imagining that God has called them to wage jihad against the West and to deliberately terrorize innocent civilians.
If you can't see that, we have no basis for discussion. Maybe those cigars had hashish rather than tobacco in them, eh? |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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I watched the movie. What tripe. Seriously, was it put together by a highschool audiovisual club? Was there anything insightful at all to it? He rehashed a bunch of old footage that we have already all seen and then hinted that he had ripped out some pages from the Koran.
Nothing enlightening about the piece at all. While there are not doubt religious nuts that are going to use this piece as a call to violence, I hope this "film maker" is willing to accept his portion of the blame and be willing to explain to some dutch peacekeepers' or government agents' children what led to their parents' death.
Kudos to him. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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What kills me is that people on here are willing to advocate war against an entire religion based on a small percentage of followers of that religion who don't like us.
I taught for 5 years in Canada. Students from just about every middle eastern country you could name. There weren't students that had grown up in Canada, they came only for a short time to learn English. Funny thing, I got along with every single one of them. Of all the nationalities I came across, those from the middle east always struck me as the most kind and giving. Many of them prayed 4 times a day and followed the Quran quite strictly. But now I'm hearing they are all out to kill me and destroy my civilization. Hmm, guess I should get myself into the military as soon as possible and kill me as many of them as I can.  |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
...I hope this "film maker" is willing to accept his portion of the blame and be willing to explain to some dutch peacekeepers' or government agents' children what led to their parents' death.
Kudos to him. |
That's it. Don't blame the people that kill, blame a film maker. Kudos to you.
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| ...those from the middle east always struck me as the most kind and giving. Many of them prayed 4 times a day and followed the Quran quite strictly. |
They only prayed 4 times a day? They weren't following the Qur'an very strictly then, were they? If you were teaching Arab students in Canada, they were probably some of the best and brightest. The Arabs I taught and taught with were some of the most immature people I have ever met. That's not to say they weren't nice. Most were, but if personal responsibility were dynamite, most of them wouldn't have enough to blow their nose. They aren't all out to kill you and destroy your civilization, but the ones that are seemed pretty damned determined. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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On principle I don't disagree with much of what you wrote. Say there is a hive of angry bees. Everyone knows what is going to happen if you throw a rock at it. Are you suggesting that the kid that knocks down the beehive, knowing full well what the consequences will be, bears no responsibility whatsoever?
I do not disagree that there is a threat out there from radical islamists. I do not disagree that it needs to be dealt with. I disagree with much of the unproductive methods we are using to combat it. I disagree with the west back tracking on much of what we hold dear to combat this "mortal" threat.
Believe it or not, I actually supported the invasion of Iraq. I'm not a pacifist by any means whatsoever but it has become painfully obvious, hasn't it? that this war has been mismanaged from the get go. I simply cannot stand the doublespeak from this administration. This is supposedly a war to usher in a new era in the middle east, vital to our survival. How do you think it's going so far? No draft, no national mobilization, no strategy. In this fight for "our very way of life" most Americans are still content to sit at home and bitch and moan about the economy and price of cheetos. You can't have it both ways.
Also, I believe you are being slightly disingenuous by implying that I am only blaming the "film maker" don't you think?
| Quote: |
| I hope this "film maker" is willing to accept his portion of the blame and be willing to explain to some dutch peacekeepers' or government agents' children what led to their parents' death. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Adventurer imagined:
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| Steve, thinks I don't get it, but I do know Bush has invoked God and so did Tony Blair |
Were you hatched in a big bird's nest?
Gimme a break: invoking God in the manner they did is not the same as imagining that God has called them to wage jihad against the West and to deliberately terrorize innocent civilians.
If you can't see that, we have no basis for discussion. Maybe those cigars had hashish rather than tobacco in them, eh? |
Steve, read the link. I don't put hashish in my cigars. Do you? Just focus on the points.... And don't put me in Big Bird or whomever's nest and stick to the points.
BUSHANDGOD
The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
P.S. there is more in that article about Bush invoking God....
And don't ever put hashish in my cigars, that would ruin the flavour... |
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