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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Islamophobia... destroying bridges or building |
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While there is reasonable Islamophobia, there are terrorists out there, but on the other hand, I think right wing Christians in the US and right wing Jews along with the fanatical Muslims enforce the ideas in each other that they are right and feed off the negative energy. We must counter that with something more positive, bridge building, and there are people from all three communities fighting against stereotypes. I saw this Arab organization that would invite Jewish speakers to speak on behalf of Palestinians. Many of the Arabs were surprised, because they didn't believe a Jewish person would actually care for them, and the Jewish speaker who is rather well-known now had one of the largest audiences he ever had thanks to the work of that Arab group. The house was packed. People need to get beyond trying to easily pigeon hole Jews, Muslims, or Christians and finding ways to add fuel to the fire.
I was browsing on-line for polls to look at the views of Muslims, in general, in Europe. And you know what, in so many cases, they mirror that of the general European population. That flies into the face of stereotypes many people have. Stereotypes are stereotypes.
Many Arabs think Jews promoted the War in Iraq and were generally behind it. The truth be told, the Jewish community, in the United States
opposed going to war, and they were right. The Jews on the right who helped push for the war were wrong. The mainstream Jewish population had it right. Most Muslims in Europe have their thinking right, I would suspect. In my experience, also Arabs think that Americans know what is happening in the Middle East, and have for years hated them. This is not true. People who are very familiar with many cultures can probably back me up on this happening in other areas with other cultures.
I will post what this article in 2006 said about the views of Muslims in Europe. Again, this is not an endorsement of unchecked immigration, not monitoring mosques, encouraging mostly skilled immigrants, and making sure immigrants from whatever continent are suitable for immigrating to countries such as Canada, Sweden, or the U.S. There are problems with accomodating immigrants, for sure. The Swedes are having a hard time with assimilating an influx of Christian Aramaic (Suryoyo speaking) Christians called Assyrians who fled Iraq, not that they wouldn't be educated. They are still not Swedes. At least, not yet.
Last edited by Adventurer on Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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The greatest concern among Muslim minorities in all four countries is unemployment. Islamic extremism emerges as the number-two worry generally, a concern shared by Western publics as well as Muslims in Egypt, Jordan, and Pakistan. The decline in the importance of religion, adoption of modern roles by women, and influences of popular culture upon youth are generally lower-ranked concerns. Overall, British Muslims express the greatest level of concern about the issues tested.
The majority of European Muslims do not see many or most Europeans as hostile towards Muslims. But substantial numbers of Muslims do perceive such hostility. This belief is most widespread in Germany, where more than half of both Muslims and the general public see many or most Germans as hostile toward Muslims. At the same time, however, German Muslims are the least likely to report personal experiences with discrimination.
German Muslims are also far more inclined than those elsewhere in Europe to see new immigrants as wanting to be distinct - 52% take this view - and German nationals overwhelmingly (76%) share this view. In contrast, in France, 78% of Muslims say that Muslims there want to adopt French customs, though 53% of the general public feels that French Muslims want to remain distinct.
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moosehead

Joined: 05 May 2007
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Islamophobia... destroying bridges or buidling |
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Adventurer wrote: |
The truth be told, the Jewish community, in the United States opposed going to war, and they were right. The Jews on the right who helped push for the war were wrong. The mainstream Jewish population had it right. |
I don't know of any polls that were done but personally DO know of many Jews who would have been considered pacifists were in favor of attacking Iraq. In fact, being someone who was informed as to how many people were thinking (an active journalist) I was shocked at how many in the Jewish community actually supported going to war.
The fact that Joseph Lieberman became an outspoken hawk did not help matters at all.
I would like to know where you heard otherwise - that they were not in favor of invading Iraq.
fyi, I was in NYC during 9/11 and until summer 2002. NY has the largest population of Jews outside of Israel so I think it's safe to say I was in a community where the Jewish voice was heard. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Islamophobia... destroying bridges or buidling |
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moosehead wrote: |
Adventurer wrote: |
The truth be told, the Jewish community, in the United States opposed going to war, and they were right. The Jews on the right who helped push for the war were wrong. The mainstream Jewish population had it right. |
I don't know of any polls that were done but personally DO know of many Jews who would have been considered pacifists were in favor of attacking Iraq. In fact, being someone who was informed as to how many people were thinking (an active journalist) I was shocked at how many in the Jewish community actually supported going to war.
The fact that Joseph Lieberman became an outspoken hawk did not help matters at all.
I would like to know where you heard otherwise - that they were not in favor of invading Iraq.
fyi, I was in NYC during 9/11 and until summer 2002. NY has the largest population of Jews outside of Israel so I think it's safe to say I was in a community where the Jewish voice was heard. |
I understand you were in New York, but there is a lot of diversity in the Jewish community in New York, people are not uniform and some of the Jews that yell the loudest are not necessarily the ones represent the majority of Jewish voters or Jewish Americans. Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz are Jews, but so was Albert Einstein. Jews weren't generally behind the Iraq War anymore than all Jews are Albert Einstein or Richard Perle. Arabs and some Americans stereotyped Jews into thinking they supported the war, when they didn't. I will quote you from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz (which means in Hebrew this land Ha- this Aretz/Erez-land).
Rosner's Blog
Shmuel Rosner Chief U.S. Correspondent www.haaretz.com/rosner Biography | Email me
Posted: February 25, 2007
Why do American Jews oppose the Iraq war more than everybody else?
1.
"Jewish Americans are the most strongly opposed to the Iraq war" of all religious groups. Is this a surprise? Not really, but it is now semi-official, after a Gallup analysis of 13 surveys from the last two-plus years concluded that Jewish people oppose the Iraq war by a "better than 3-to-1 margin, 77 percent to 21 percent."
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Gallup's data is not surprising because it is consistent with many other previous polls. Just look at this 2005 AJC poll: 70 percent of Jews disapprove of the war in Iraq. And in 2003, when most Americans still supported the war: 54 percent disapprove.
3.
The Gallup analysis does give us better tools with which to compare the Jewish view to the non-Jewish view. Mormons and Protestants show more support than opposition to the war. Catholics are somewhat more likely to oppose (53 percent) than to support the war (46 percent). The two groups closest to Jews in their opposition to the war: Americans with no religion and black Protestants. "Americans without a religious preference are twice as likely to oppose (66 percent) as to support (33 percent) the war", Black Protestants "show strong opposition to the war" - stronger even than Jewish opposition - 78 percent to 18 percent.
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Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Location: In Da House
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I suffer from what bleeding heart hyper liberals like yourself would call Islamophobia, and so do all the very intelligent and well educated people I know, and guess what, we're all liberals. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Funkdafied wrote: |
I suffer from what bleeding heart hyper liberals like yourself would call Islamophobia, and so do all the very intelligent and well educated people I know, and guess what, we're all liberals. |
Read what I wrote above. I believe there is a necessary amount of Islamophobia from Muslims themselves, non-Muslims, and I am not for those people to remove Christmas trees, because it upset a Muslim felon in Toronto. I am liberal in some ways, but conservative in other ways, because you have to conserve your country. I seek to look at the shades of grey from a factual stand point. What's wrong with that?
I don't dismiss Islamophobia, but I think one shouldn't either downplay it or overplay it. I think that's fair enough. It's kind of like there is a difference between the fire for roasting your hot dogs and the kind
that will roast you and the hot dog. What about that one, dude? |
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Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Location: In Da House
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Don't ever instruct me to read what you have written after I have responded you condescending little nerd.
Second, I find that you in particular RARELY look at things from a factual and well informed point of view. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Islamophobia... destroying bridges or buidling |
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Adventurer wrote: |
1.
"Jewish Americans are the most strongly opposed to the Iraq war" of all religious groups. Is this a surprise? Not really, but it is now semi-official, after a Gallup analysis of 13 surveys from the last two-plus years concluded that Jewish people oppose the Iraq war by a "better than 3-to-1 margin, 77 percent to 21 percent."
2.
Gallup's data is not surprising because it is consistent with many other previous polls. Just look at this 2005 AJC poll: 70 percent of Jews disapprove of the war in Iraq. And in 2003, when most Americans still supported the war: 54 percent disapprove.
3.
The Gallup analysis does give us better tools with which to compare the Jewish view to the non-Jewish view. Mormons and Protestants show more support than opposition to the war. Catholics are somewhat more likely to oppose (53 percent) than to support the war (46 percent). The two groups closest to Jews in their opposition to the war: Americans with no religion and black Protestants. "Americans without a religious preference are twice as likely to oppose (66 percent) as to support (33 percent) the war", Black Protestants "show strong opposition to the war" - stronger even than Jewish opposition - 78 percent to 18 percent.
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That's an interesting poll, Adventurer. I'd love to see some exploration as to why some religious groups opposed the war more than others. It still surprises me when I meet Christians who are very pro-war, though I guess it shouldn't. But in the UK I found that Christians tended to be more humanitarian and concerned with things like 'peace' and 'love' - whereas I suppose in later years I encountered American Christians, some of whom (though by no means not all) had a more 'ruthless' outlook. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Funkdafied wrote: |
Second, I find that you in particular RARELY look at things from a factual and well informed point of view. |
In Adventurer's defense, that's patent nonsense. In all the time he's posted here, he's always made a noticable attempt to examine both sides of an issue - more than any of the regular posters I'd wager. Myself, I tend to argue a corner (while silently considering the opposite perspectives proffered with interest) as I find it more interesting to debate that way. Adventurer is often at pains to express more than one point of view. And on the subjects on which I am very familiar, Adventurer has struck me as one of the more well informed (and more widely read) on this forum. And he's a reasonable and peaceable guy, who probably wont respond to this sort of flame. |
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Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Location: In Da House
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Big_Bird wrote: |
Funkdafied wrote: |
Second, I find that you in particular RARELY look at things from a factual and well informed point of view. |
In Adventurer's defense, that's patent nonsense. In all the time he's posted here, he's always made a noticable attempt to examine both sides of an issue - more than any of the regular posters I'd wager. Myself, I tend to argue a corner (while silently considering the opposite perspectives proffered with interest) as I find it more interesting to debate that way. Adventurer is often at pains to express more than one point of view. And on the subjects on which I am very familiar, Adventurer has struck me as one of the more well informed (and more widely read) on this forum. And he's a reasonable and peaceable guy, he probably wont respond to your childish flame. |
He does pay lip service to both sides, which only ends up making his posts garbled and naive like a highly idealistic teenager who doesn't quite know how things work yet. As for the informed part, no. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Funkdafied wrote: |
Big_Bird wrote: |
Funkdafied wrote: |
Second, I find that you in particular RARELY look at things from a factual and well informed point of view. |
In Adventurer's defense, that's patent nonsense. In all the time he's posted here, he's always made a noticable attempt to examine both sides of an issue - more than any of the regular posters I'd wager. Myself, I tend to argue a corner (while silently considering the opposite perspectives proffered with interest) as I find it more interesting to debate that way. Adventurer is often at pains to express more than one point of view. And on the subjects on which I am very familiar, Adventurer has struck me as one of the more well informed (and more widely read) on this forum. And he's a reasonable and peaceable guy, he probably wont respond to your childish flame. |
He does pay lip service to both sides, which only ends up making his posts garbled and naive like a highly idealistic teenager who doesn't quite know how things work yet. As for the informed part, no. |
Adventurer could certainly work on his editting (though perhaps his priorities are not with how he reads on an Expat's website) but I have to disagree with you about him being ill-informed. On certain issues I've been very impressed with his grasp of a situation and the history leading up to it. |
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Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Location: In Da House
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
but I have to disagree with you about him being ill-informed. On certain issues I've been very impressed with his grasp of a situation and the history behind it. |
Well we can agree to dissagree then, because I don't find that at all. Showing that you've read some basic history is quite different from showing that you have understood it. Reading a wide range of references is also important. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Funkdafied wrote: |
Reading a wide range of references is also important. |
Which is something I've noticed he does. |
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Funkdafied

Joined: 04 Nov 2007 Location: In Da House
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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That's odd becuase I've noticed the exact opposite. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Funkdafied wrote: |
That's odd becuase I've noticed the exact opposite. |
Well then, your powers of observation need a little work, as does your arrogance. Or you've taken an interest in different threads than I, where you are quite right (though I have my doubts about that).
I can only speak for the subject areas in which I have an interest, but on several of these themes he's quite clearly been one of the few with greater knowledge of the situation. So much so that I have occasionally found myself somewhat impressed. This is a poster who does his homework. |
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