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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| First, I intended it as a sincere compliment. If you see me as a right-winger, however, then that should suggest to you just how far to the left you stand. |
Ouch!
I never thought you were a right winger, I was just responding on how Bobster might see the term as being an insult.
I, like everyone on the board, and most everywhere else, look at problems from the outside and assume there are quick solutions. Of course, in the thick of things it is always different. I don't think you will find any instances of me suggesting that we go in from the outside and change things in other cultures to suit my idea of what is right.
I had Middle Eastern women friends in grad school, and they never gave me the impression of being a particularly oppressed lot, so I have understood that the conditions for women in the region were much more complex that we could see. There is certainly oppression here, but there are also intelligent and able women, and men, dealing with it without our guidance.
I think that being a realist requires some mental flexibility (relativity?) and this is not very possible for ideologues. Ideologies of any sort are self-imposed blinders. My political views are decidedly left, but at heart I am a relativist and a realist. And I take the label as a compliment, thank you gopher. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| I don't think you will find any instances of me suggesting that we go in from the outside and change things in other cultures to suit my idea of what is right. |
Quite right. In fact it's the silliest thing you could do, as it would more likely encourage people to hold on to their old traditions out of nationalism and a sense of "how dare those bloody foreigners tell us what to do!" - just as foreign criticism of dog-eating had some of my students running to the dog restaurants out of principle, to eat a food they'd never cared for before. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| You are welcome, Desultude. |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
I hope this hasn't bored you to sleep, but maybe it answers the question a bit.  |
No, I atually found it very interesting. |
me too.
'was never aware that being called a realist is considered an insult. hmm. learn something new every day, as they say.
it's great to see you around, des. i've been wondering about you lately, since a mutual friend has recently been trying to get in touch with you. is your e-mail blocked there?
cheers! |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| Quote: |
| First, I intended it as a sincere compliment. If you see me as a right-winger, however, then that should suggest to you just how far to the left you stand. |
Ouch!
I never thought you were a right winger, I was just responding on how Bobster might see the term as being an insult.
I, like everyone on the board, and most everywhere else, look at problems from the outside and assume there are quick solutions. Of course, in the thick of things it is always different. I don't think you will find any instances of me suggesting that we go in from the outside and change things in other cultures to suit my idea of what is right.
I had Middle Eastern women friends in grad school, and they never gave me the impression of being a particularly oppressed lot, so I have understood that the conditions for women in the region were much more complex that we could see. There is certainly oppression here, but there are also intelligent and able women, and men, dealing with it without our guidance.
I think that being a realist requires some mental flexibility (relativity?) and this is not very possible for ideologues. Ideologies of any sort are self-imposed blinders. My political views are decidedly left, but at heart I am a relativist and a realist. And I take the label as a compliment, thank you gopher. |
Saudi society sees:
stoning of women for "honor" offences including for the crime of having been raped
beheadings for apostasy or blasphemy
hand/foot amputations for lesser offences
public hanging of homosexuals and outspoken women
female sexual slavery
no democracy
no human rights
everyone down on their knees
non-Muslims as dhimmis
public floggings for sexual crimes such as flirting or speaking with an unrelated person of the opposite sex
all women under the veil
Sadly, the Saudi elite also lord it over gigantic sums of oil-wealth and are spreading their vile wahabbist doctrines all around the world.
Saudi also has a sex ratio of 1.196 (the female population 84% the size of the male) and it's also polygamous, meaning Saudi is a hotbed of sex-starved, angry, male would-be suicide bombers.
How anyone can be a relativist regarding the above I've no idea. I could never possibly dignify Saudi Arabia by stepping foot on it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| I could never possibly dignify Saudi Arabia by stepping foot on it. |
YOu seem to be implying that Des was wrong to work there. I disagree. She is teaching female students. Shouldn't that be encouraged? Aren't things more likely to improve for females in that country as more and more women become educated? I see it as a service and a positive contribution to humanity. |
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crazy_arcade
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Why are so many Catholic countries so poor?
Why are European nations and colonies thereof rich? Cause they went across the ocean and STOLE STOLE STOLE STOLE. Yay for Gold!!!!
Please, Europe was a backwater for a damn long time. The Middle Eastern countries had advanced Science and Math. They had advanced economic systems and were emerging as the new global power.
Europe found gold and the rest is history. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crazy_arcade wrote: |
Why are so many Catholic countries so poor?
Why are European nations and colonies thereof rich? Cause they went across the ocean and STOLE STOLE STOLE STOLE. Yay for Gold!!!!
Please, Europe was a backwater for a damn long time. The Middle Eastern countries had advanced Science and Math. They had advanced economic systems and were emerging as the new global power.
Europe found gold and the rest is history. |
now if that isn't a simplistic history I don't know what is.
What do you think inspired Europeans to go overseas for that gold? Why didn't arabs (or any other group) feel compelled to go explore the rest of the world? |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
Saudi society sees:
stoning of women for "honor" offences including for the crime of having been raped
beheadings for apostasy or blasphemy
hand/foot amputations for lesser offences
public hanging of homosexuals and outspoken women
female sexual slavery
no democracy
no human rights
everyone down on their knees
non-Muslims as dhimmis
public floggings for sexual crimes such as flirting or speaking with an unrelated person of the opposite sex
all women under the veil
Sadly, the Saudi elite also lord it over gigantic sums of oil-wealth and are spreading their vile wahabbist doctrines all around the world.
Saudi also has a sex ratio of 1.196 (the female population 84% the size of the male) and it's also polygamous, meaning Saudi is a hotbed of sex-starved, angry, male would-be suicide bombers.
How anyone can be a relativist regarding the above I've no idea. I could never possibly dignify Saudi Arabia by stepping foot on it. |
I'm sure that most of this is factually accurate. But it's not enough to simply look at something and say: "I don't like that." Unless you're willing to actually do something about it. And as was pointed out, and has been painfully learned by the US in at least three recent wars, doing something often doesn't fix the problem and may make it worse.
And I assume that you're quite happy to put that evil Saudi petroleum in your car right? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| I could never possibly dignify Saudi Arabia by stepping foot on it. |
YOu seem to be implying that Des was wrong to work there. I disagree. She is teaching female students. Shouldn't that be encouraged? Aren't things more likely to improve for females in that country as more and more women become educated? I see it as a service and a positive contribution to humanity. |
What others do is none of my business, but I personally could never go to Saudi Arabia. That's what I said - didn't mean to imply what you say I seem to be implying. I agree - Des's work there sounds perfectly defensible. I wouldn't do it myself because I can think of 10 million other things I'd rather do than teach Saudis of either gender, but if others achieve goodness from Des's doing so, I've no business pontificating and that wasn't my intention. I'd have my doubts about the dubious combination of her leftism, high Saudi salary in a society probably the most an affront to leftist politics on the planet, and weak relativism argument.....but I didn't intend to judge others with my comments above.
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
I'm sure that most of this is factually accurate. But it's not enough to simply look at something and say: "I don't like that." Unless you're willing to actually do something about it. And as was pointed out, and has been painfully learned by the US in at least three recent wars, doing something often doesn't fix the problem and may make it worse.
And I assume that you're quite happy to put that evil Saudi petroleum in your car right? |
By your standards, the above is disappointing. Firstly, you advocate in no uncertain terms that one cannot take offence to things - as I take offence to Saudi Arabia - unless one does something about it. For starters, it's just a complete nonsense, since we all daily take offence at things we are powerless to affect. Secondly, what exactly can I do about Saudi Arabia? If I spoke my mind in Saudi Arabia, I'd be killed, since I'm an atheist, an anti-theist, an Islamophobe, and I support the Israelis AND the Iraq War.
My car and petrol? Happy about Saudi oil? Er, no, actually. I seek to end all oil for electricity production originating in the Middle East (and know how to do it - so does the chap in my avatar). We can still buy petroleum from elsewhere. And.....I don't drive! I live in Seoul and there's no point.
And why raise the subject of a pre-emptive attack on Saudi, as though my previous comments called for it? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
What do you think inspired Europeans to go overseas for that gold? Why didn't arabs (or any other group) feel compelled to go explore the rest of the world? |
Spices, right? Profit. They were more remote from the orient, source of spices to keep rotting meat tasting okay. Overland routes were more dangerous than sea routes. They bumped into a lot of "not orient" places via ship that had a lot of natural resources they could exploit.
The Muslims either had the spices or had shorter supply lines. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
What do you think inspired Europeans to go overseas for that gold? Why didn't arabs (or any other group) feel compelled to go explore the rest of the world? |
Spices, right? Profit. They were more remote from the orient, source of spices to keep rotting meat tasting okay. Overland routes were more dangerous than sea routes. They bumped into a lot of "not orient" places via ship that had a lot of natural resources they could exploit.
The Muslims either had the spices or had shorter supply lines. |
That's certainly part of it. Also the king of spain had just taken over all of modern-day Spain when columbus went on his voyage. The king wasn't exactly feeling secure in his position, and still felt Christiniaty was threatened, so why not gain allies and support from the Church against the infidel Muslims by going to India (or North America by accident) and converting some heathens? |
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