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| Is glorifying virginity bad for women? |
| No, women should generally be encouraged to have a minimum of lovers. |
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30% |
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| No way! Let's all go to Saudi Arabia (or Bible Belt America)... |
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7% |
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| Yes, keep your sticky nose out of people's bedrooms.. |
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61% |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| IMF crisis wrote: |
| I don't see how it would be bad for women. |
Are you talking about virginity being bad for women, or are you talking about glorifying virginity being bad for women. They are two very different things.
I don't see anything wrong with remaining a virgin, until you are married or until you die, if that's what you want. It's promoting the idea that virgins are 'better' than those who are sexually active that I find unhealthy.
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| I can see how it is very bad and unfair if virginity is held as some sort of standard for only one sex and not the other, though |
. Well, this is a huge part of the problem. In societies where women are expected to be chaste the men are generally free to poke their pipes where ever they can find accomodation...so long as they only brag about it to their peers, of course. Yet women there are roundly despised for any minor sexual indescretion.
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| ANd when you say it is so "fifties," does that mean it is bad? |
Well in the fifties, if you were caught in a moment of weakness, you could face social ostracisation for having had sex outside of marriage. People would often treat you with utter contempt and hurl horrible abuse. In earlier times, many girls lives were ruined for having 'slipped up' in that manner. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Is glorifying virginity bad for women? |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I don't see anything wrong with practicing abstinance, if that's what you prefer, but I find it disturbing that it's become a huge political movement. |
Why do you care if there are movements to promote abstinence or not? Has anyone EVER told you that you have to abstain from sex? Threatened you? Why is it that someone who believes differently from you is so bad? Not very open-minded, are you?
Would you be OK with movements that promote women screwing anything that moves? |
If they were bullying women into screwing anything that moves, most certainly not. And if they were coming into universities and highschools peddling their bollocks I would actively protest against it. If they came to my (future) daughter and tried to persuade her that screwing anything that moved was the best thing for her, and women who didn't follow this were somehow lesser individuals, of poor character, or mentally ill, I would blow my nut!
This promotion of abstinence in teenagers (encouraged by Bush and co) has been shown to be disasterous. Girls are even more likely to get pregnant or (along with young men) get STDs under these programmes than youngsters who are given proper education in sexual matters. If this abstinence nonsense ever takes off in the UK, especially while my kids are at an age to be influenced by it, I shall take steps to make sure they are not indoctrinated with this crap. Secondly, if I ever hear my kids categorising women into nice girls and sluts, they will be up for some serious reeducation.
I don't want my kids to be shagging anything that walks, but neither do I want them having backward attitudes. Abstinenance is fine as a personal choice, but I don't believe it should be held up as an ideal whereby those who do not adhere to it are considered to be of lesser character. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Is glorifying virginity bad for women? |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I don't see anything wrong with practicing abstinance, if that's what you prefer, but I find it disturbing that it's become a huge political movement. |
Why do you care if there are movements to promote abstinence or not? Has anyone EVER told you that you have to abstain from sex? Threatened you? Why is it that someone who believes differently from you is so bad? Not very open-minded, are you?
Would you be OK with movements that promote women screwing anything that moves? |
If they were bullying women into screwing anything that moves, most certainly not. And if they were coming into universities and highschools peddling their bollocks I would actively protest against it. If they came to my (future) daughter and tried to persuade her that screwing anything that moved was the best thing for her, and women who didn't follow this were somehow lesser individuals, of poor character, or mentally ill, I would blow my nut!
This promotion of abstinence in teenagers (encouraged by Bush and co) has been shown to be disasterous. Girls are even more likely to get pregnant or (along with young men) get STDs under these programmes than youngsters who are given proper education. If this abstinence nonsense ever takes off in the UK, especially while my kids are at an age to influenced by it, I shall take steps to make sure they are not indoctrinated with this crap. Secondly, if I ever hear my kids categorising women into nice girls and sluts, they will be up for some serious reeducation. |
With all due respect, BB, I don't think you're getting it. Yes, I've caught your not-so-subtle digs at Bush and the U.S. but I haven't read anywhere that anyone is casting the "I'm good, you're bad" aspersion on anyone. Its simply a movement to help young women (and men) avoid some of the possible negative consequences of having sex at an early age. Why is that so bad? Just because you don't agree with it? Frankly, I think it teaches young people that they can control themselves and that they are not animals. Self-control is not a bad thing.
Last edited by wannago on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Stop pushing out your puppies. It's obvious that there are too many people in the world as it is.
I come from a family who all possess higher degrees. We average 1 kid per married couple.
I don't give a shit about the future demographics. Save the Earth, ferchrissakes.
Last edited by caniff on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Stop pushing out your puppies. It's obvious that there are too many people in the world as it is. |
Jump off a cliff and do something about it then. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| Stop pushing out your puppies. It's obvious that there are too many people in the world as it is. |
Jump off a cliff and do something about it then. |
I'm sorry. Did I offend your fecundity?
The world doesn't need your offspring. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| Stop pushing out your puppies. It's obvious that there are too many people in the world as it is. |
Jump off a cliff and do something about it then. |
I'm sorry. Did I offend your fecundity?
The world doesn't need your offspring. |
I hope you that between preaching to others, you also ride bicycles and eschew cars, resorting only to public transport when the need arises. I hope you also eat a strict vegetarian diet, never fly, and try to carefully observe any habit that will keep your carbon footprint to an absolute minimum. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
I don't see anything wrong with practicing abstinence, if that's what you prefer, but I find it disturbing that it's become a huge political movement.
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If I replace "abstinence" with "homosexuality" I don't agree. Thus, I don't give a shit if virgins want to get political. |
No, it's completely different. Homosexuals aren't trying to get me to be a homosexual. They aren't telling me that I am 'dirty' and 'cheap' because I won't screw other women. They aren't telling me that I am a 'bad girl' because I won't sleep with the pretty girl next door. They aren't telling me that I have a form of mental illness because I like sex. And they aren't trying to force policies onto aid organisations in the third world, cutting their funding when they discuss or address heterosexuality (and health issues that might accompany it) when they assist desperate people in poverty and life-threatening circumstances. Wrong analogy. Try again please! |
Well, I lived in the Bible Belt, which you seem to think is being overcome by this attitude. I lived there fairly recently and I attended college there fairly recently.
The way you seem to think of the Bible Belt is not the way I experienced it.
Further, I actually know of gays who try to pressure bisexuals to choose one way or the other. And I've never been called dirty or cheap by anyone I've known in such a chastity club.
As for the abstinence only shit, I agree that's fucked up, but people who are against homosexuality also argue that funding AIDS research is fucked up. That bit can not be blamed solely on some virginity clubs. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Is glorifying virginity bad for women? |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| If they were bullying women into screwing anything that moves, most certainly not. |
Bullying? Did we read the same article? |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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got to go with big bird on this one. As an American, I think the abstinence approach to sex ed is an idiotic one.
Yes, parents should talk to their kids about sex, but not all parents do. When schools only discuss abstinence as a means of protection, it both enforces the double standard of women who engage in sex as whores and neglects information on how to engage in sex safely.
While I disagree with Christopher Hitchens on many things, I'd agree with his analysis of the Catholic church's role in Africa. When an entire continent is being ravaged by Aids, telling them that condoms don't work and the only protection is abstinence is insane and disastrous. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| ^^ But it is only idiotic for WOMEN? Because Big Bird is obviously focused only on women while bullshit AIDS education in Africa (or whatever) harms both men and women. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird chirped:
| Quote: |
| I don't see anything wrong with practicing abstinance, if that's what you prefer, but I find it disturbing that it's become a huge political movement. |
Where did you get that idea? Next thing you know you'll be saying it's part of the Republican Party platform for the 2008 convention. Jeez, old girl, just because some women aren't as randy as you, or actually put their morals into practice is no cause to ridicule them.
I'll tell you what tiresome: constantly making links between viriginity and prudish manners and then Catholicism. It's offensive, frankly, but not surprising coming from a "liberated" British woman.
NEWS FLASH: just because a woman delays sexual gratification doesn't mean she's without sexual urges or suppressing her desires and in major denial.
And in much of the U.S., one needn't return to the '50s to find communities where virginity in women AND men before marriage is highly valued. It's also been making a resurgence as a moral code among American youth for more than 15 years. Where have you been?
And teen pregnancy is no laughing matter; in this respect the West could learn something from the East (although, sadly, here too the attitude is shifting). |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| It's also been making a resurgence as a moral code among American youth for more than 15 years |
Turns out this is is all social-conservative hot air. Here:
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/stateevaluations/index.htm
They even cite their sources
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| In a 1994 review[5] of sex education programs, Kirby et al assessed all the studies available at the time of school-based, abstinence-only programs that had received peer review and that measured attitudes, intentions, and behavior. Kirby et al found that none of the three abstinence-only programs was effective in producing a statistically significant impact on sexual behaviors in program participants relative to comparisons. In a 1997 report for the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, Doug Kirby reviewed evaluations from six abstinence-only programs[6], again finding no program that produced a statistically significant change in sexual behavior. This was again confirmed in 2000[7], when another review by Kirby found no abstinence-only program that produced statistically significant changes in sexual behaviors among program youth relative to comparisons. This failure of abstinence-only programs to produce behavior change was among the central concerns expressed by some authors of the evaluations included in this document. [For examples of authors' remarks on behavior change, see quotations under Arizona, Florida, Missouri, and Pennsylvania in the state-by-state analyses that follow.] It is important to note that a great deal of research contradicts the belief that changes in knowledge and attitudes alone will necessarily result in behavior change.[8] |
Also:
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| Abstinence-only programs show little evidence of sustained (long-term) impact on attitudes and intentions. Worse, they show some negative impacts on youth's willingness to use contraception, including condoms, to prevent negative sexual health outcomes related to sexual intercourse |
In short, not only are ab-only programs bullshit, they're looking like they're dangerous bullshit as well.
Teach them how to be responsible with their sex organs... it's the only responsible thing to do. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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The concept of virginity has nothing to do with what's good or bad for women. Virginity is all about men -- it's a commodity that men value, for the same reason they value burqa-wearing women in a different cultural milieu. (The reason is probably biological, and related to men's desire to ensure that they are the fathers of the children they raise.)
It's not like this is some big secret. Even the comparison of virginity with a diamond is a dead giveaway. Who's that diamond for? It's for the virgin's eventual husband, of course.
Now, I'd be the last to suggest that men's needs and wants aren't legitimate. But I will suggest that they do not trump the freedom of women to make whatever sexual choices they want to make, and I'd advise women to stop collaborating in the commodification of their sexuality. Kinda like the whole "just say no to sex with pro-lifers" thing. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent stuff, stillnotking. There is a quite defensible evolutionary justification for males putting stock on female virginity and that really is all that need be said. Unsurprisingly, utterly primitive and base ideologies like Christianity and Islam are chock full of references to virgins. Muslims, as we all know, are gonna get 72 should their efforts on Earth please the boss. 
Anyway, Big Bird, regretably I couldn't make it further than half way through the citation in your OP because it was just sad and confused waffle and - ironically - the ultimate justification for women losing their virginity as soon as the fancy takes them. Lack of sex causes all manner of insanity from foamy waffle in the OP to suicide bombers and I strongly recommend sexual intercourse for all concerned.
I had sex with a virgin in my early 20s and it wasn't pleasant for me particularly. It can be very difficult if you're, frankly speaking, rather large. |
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