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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to get into whether or not I believe affirmative action is a good thing or not. It's never been applied to me, positively or adversely, nor to anyone I know, and so it's not something I've given enough thought to. However, I thought I'd just make a point about this:
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| [ My first and foremost opinion is that the best qualified person should receive the position. |
This is all very well; ideally the best qualified person would receive the position. However, does that necessarily happen each time? The people who choose who is the 'best qualified person' are often imperfect (as all humans are) and their own prejudices and misconceptions may colour their idea of who is the 'best qualified person.' There are many many examples of very qualified people being overlooked in favour of apparently less suitable candidates. Not only do colour or gender factor in these decisions, but height, weight, physical appearance, age, whether you wore the right school tie, and accent can influence someone's views as to whether you are intelligent or capable enough to fill a position. People are rarely chosen on the basis of their experience or qualification alone. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| You seem to be wishing to use the verb "agree" like I would use it regarding onions. Onions don't agree with me -- I don't eat them. I don't think they should be wiped off the menu, nor do I think those who eat them shouldn't be allowed to. I just want no part of eating onions. This does not make me onionphobic. |
bingo. |
Something still not meeting up at the corners, though.
| Quote: |
| BUT....what I don't like the labling of someone as a "homophobic", just becuase he/she does not agree with that way of life, and thinks it is wrong... |
Your willingness to keep from persecuting gay people is laudable, but the bolded bit just above does indeed mean you have just a wee bit of homophobia in you. Your "bingo" doesn't apply -- I don't think eating onions is wrong.
It's not a crime to be homophobic. Just accept this wee small part of your make-up and move on. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
OK, so there are many ways to approach this, so please forgive what I think will turn out to be an epicly long post.
I have never been called a...what is the right word? Tia Tomasa? before but I can see where my desdain for affirmitive action policies come from, by the way, none of which stems from a feeling of subservience to 'the white man.'
*snip* |
See, I knew you were better suited to this sort of thing.
I hear and see the merit of everything you have to say. I even think Affirmative Action has neared the time at which it has outlived its utility. It was meant to redress grave injustices of the past, and it's done a pretty good job.
Some of your points are a little facile. It's not as though Bruthu Thug Idiot is going to win a place in Harvard because The Man needs another black body. The best qualified member of any minority may not be as qualified for admission to a university as the best qualified Whitey. But within that minority group, I imagine there's some fierce competition for those quota slots, and I'd imagine the best qualified among them are a damn sight more qualified than the least qualified but acceptable white ones.
By culling the cream of the minority crop for college admissions, we're recognizing people with the drive to have overcome the generally far poorer educational systems they've been brought up in.
My understanding of AfAct is that it's only goverments and educational instititutions to which it applies. Businesses that institute quotas do so of their own volition, even if they do so because they wish to avoid lawsuits.
A well qualified Whitey stands a good chance of finding a job somewhere else than a well qualified non-Whitey. That may mean the Whitey doesn't get his/her first choice of jobs, when some also-qualified non-Whitey gets the job because the company feels a need to get more colorful, and that's not fair, but it's an unfairness that redresses an even greater unfairness. The sins of the fathers, blah blah blah.
And as Big Bird points out, selection of "the best qualified" is somewhat of a myth, because personalities always come into play. As, sometimes, they should.
I worked for a privately owned company once that had a laboriously long hiring process that ensured they would not only hire "qualified" people but people with personalities that they could work with. My boss there, one of the owners, told me once, "Yes, we do discriminate -- we like smart people." They also liked people who weren't tactless or abrasive or ego-malformed. As a result, they have a very successful business with a workforce that is, by fluke, rather ethnically, religiously, politically diverse.
The reason anyone other than the descendants of slaves came to be included in AfAct quotas is one part "The System Run Amok" and one part "Some of Them Qualify Too." We don't serve your kind here had been widely applied to Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, in a way that it wasn't so much applied to Italians and Irish, because Italians (less so) and Irish (more so) looked like regular old people to Whitey. They endured and overcame a lot a crap, but not so much as the people that Whitey could tell right off was not "one of them."
I'm neither left nor right, either. But I do believe that government can and should play a positive role in making things right, because left to ourselves, humans have a long history of making things not right. I know, so do many governments have a long history screwing things up.
Anyway, C-C, I think we're not so far apart as is apparent. I just think you have more faith that things are currently better than are they than I do. As far as I see it, just a little while longer with quotas and whatnot will redress the historical wrongs and we can then get on with the color-and-creed-blind meritocracy. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Your willingness to keep from persecuting gay people is laudable, but the bolded bit just above does indeed mean you have just a wee bit of homophobia in you. Your "bingo" doesn't apply -- I don't think eating onions is wrong.
It's not a crime to be homophobic. Just accept this wee small part of your make-up and move on. |
LOL! Nice try, I'll give you that.
I have no FEAR of the homosexual community. I don't hold any grudges, anger or annimosity towards the gay community either. But, it is a lifestyle that I don't agree with. Do I accept as a part of our world, of course. As I said, what I don't accept or agree with is that someone telling me I am wrong and homophobic because it (homosexuality) is something I don't, nor will I ever agree with. To me, that just stands out as rationalization, and an attempt to try and make everyone AGREE with their lifesytle by saying others are wrong for not agreeing with it.
So, I guess that is the best way I can explain it as this point.
dmbfan |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Don't go to that big Dave's heaven in the sky, Daskalos!
You are a good debater, and often have an interesting perspective on things. And you're even fun to disagree with. Visit us at the CE forum, at least; after all, there's rarely anything here that even touches on the topic of Korea anyway! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bumpity bump |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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