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Biblethumper
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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The Westminster divines best stated the case for the scriptures. I cannot hope to express it better than those wise men:
I. Although the light of nature; and the works of creation; and providence; do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.
Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.
IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to a high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher, is a materialist working for financial gain any more selfish than a religious devotee working for pie in the sky? |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Biblethumper wrote: |
The Westminster divines best stated the case for the scriptures. I cannot hope to express it better than those wise men:
I. Although the light of nature; and the works of creation; and providence; do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.
Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.
IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to a high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. |
Exactly the danger. Thank you.
They make as a foundation unverifiable, undemostrable, unfalsifiable claims. It is a creed; it claims knowledge where there is none, where there is only belief, assertion, creed, and dogma. They preclude progress; set into law conservatism; negate the possibility of gaining the knowledge necessary for overcoming many forms of sufferring by making the "knowledge" contained in the scriptures final.
Thumper, is your name ironic? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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The main religion today is materialism, and it has infected religious institutions as well as financial ones.
However, one in search of material gain or in need of money is still advised to approach God via a bona fide devotional process which - if carefully followed - will purify one of material attachment.
A pure devotee is not even motivated by liberation and will render loving transcendental service to God under any condition (even going to hell to preach...) |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
That was quite a list of questions there to go through, but unfortunately I was unable to find answers to the ones I was looking for.
So I beseech the collective wisdom of the faithful on Dave's to help me out of the following dilemmas:
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual unseemliness - Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know many have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Bac |
Oh my F God, that made me piss myself laughing!!  |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Demeter: Earth Goddess. We measure Mother Earth's body in meters.
Matter. Meter. Same root. Hmm...strange.
Material. Meter, matter, material. What the. . .?!
Maternal?
Meter, matter, material, maternal.
Meter, matter, mata. . .motta. . .moter. . .mmmmooth. . . mother?
Materialism? The body? Desire? Base?
Oh, Hamlet! The lady doth protest too much! To be, or not to be. . . ?
Birth. Death. Sex. Death.
The body. It dies!
I am NOT that. (Ahhh, but tat tvam asi!)
Liberation. I am eternal, not my body, not matter, not material; I am of the eternal, not the maternal.
Eve bit the apple, tempted Adam. God damn her! Birth Pangs!
Father is heaven. Everlasting. Unchanging. Eternal. Mother is earth. Temporary. Changing. Damn the maternal!
Wanton materialists!
A tree. Heaven, father. Earth, mother. Tree binds heaven and earth. . . Marriage.
Snake. Phallus.
The snake sheds its skin . . . like the moon.
Man and woman he made them. Man and woman. A snake.
The moon sheds its skin.
Sun, masculine; moon, feminine: 28 days. The menstrual cycle. Death. Birth. Sex. The body. Original sin.
A woman may not enter the temple while menstruating.
Superstition. The sacred. The profane. Spirit. Matter. The unseen. The seen. Oh! Cover thy eyes!
Original sin... Death... Sex... Birth...
She bit the apple. Knowledge.
Know. Archaic To have sexual intercourse with.
Tree of Knowledge.
Of man, of woman, of good, of evil: duality. Knowledge.
Shame, they became aware of their bodies, naked, vulnerable, mortal.
Spirit, body. Embodiment. The body dies, this I now know.
Now we are cast from the garden. Separated from god. Need atONEment. Desire. Sex. Sublimation.
Womb, tomb. Love. Hate. Jesus, taken from to tomb . . . born again.
Womb, tomb. Love. Hate. Desire.
Desire stems from the core of mortality.
Damn the woman for my desire! Damn this pain! Damn this Body! Damn this matter! Damn the Mother!
The body dies. Ambivalence. Sex. Death. Birthpangs.
Eve. Mother Earth.
Knowledge. Why the punishment? Why? F.U.C.K. For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. Carnal. Bodily. Sin. The woman. Mortal desire. Mortal. Morbid.
Transcendence. Dualism. Man. Woman. Yoga. Union. Atonement. Non-duality. Ha-tha. Tat tvam asi.
I'm not sure, but I think some elevation of Matter is in order. |
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Insidejohnmalkovich
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: Pusan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Biblethumper
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? |
A ceremonial law, explicitly made obsolete by the fulfilment of the covenant in Jesus Christ. He made one sacrifice once and for all which made all others needless and ineffectual.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? |
First of all, the best and authorized English translation of the Bible, the King James, calls her a maidservant, not a slave. Second of all, the following verse, Exodus 21:8, makes it clear that the daughter will become betrothed to her new master. It is more like a dowry arrangement.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual unseemliness - Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. |
That would be your wife. Other women are not permissible.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? |
Lawful slavery in the Old Testament was connected to the righteous holy war against the heathen, which war is no longer lawful because the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ won the final victory over death, sin and Satan. True faith in him will make a man a conqueror.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? |
The magistrate bears the sword to punish evil-doers, as Paul states: no private man can be a judge or king himself. As for governments, although they are ordained by God, they are comprised of sinful men: even the Roman empire's authority was approved despite its paganism and sin.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? |
The dietary laws were part of the now subsumed ceremonial laws of the temple worship. Homosexuality is a violation of the moral law, which is still in effect in heaven, especially of the seventh commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, which forbids all unchaste thoughts, words and actions.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ. Indeed, Paul says, nature teaches that long hair is a shame to a man but a glory to the woman.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) |
The matters of crops and clothing are ceremonial. The violations of the moral law, such as vain oaths and adultery, are punishable by the civil magistrate.
| bacasper wrote: |
| I know many have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. |
God's word indeed endures forever. Jesus said, For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Even the ceremonial laws remain in the Bible to point us to the promises and prophecies made in the old testament which pointed to Christ and tell of God's holiness.
Last edited by Biblethumper on Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Biblethumper wrote: |
| Lawful slavery in the Old Testament was connected to the righteous holy war against the heathen, . . . |
"Righteous," "holy," and "heathen" by whose standards?
Shouldn't we allow for nationalist bias? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, this is bothering.
I do not remember politics ever being so religiously charged.
This does reflect the primary criticism which Plato had of democracy, that people's irrational passions can be manipulated by rhetoric.
I think this is one reason Plato wished to have poetry out from his Republic: religion may be understood as a peculiar brand of poetry. |
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Pink Freud
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Biblethumper wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? |
A ceremonial law, explicitly made obsolete by the fulfilment of the covenant in Jesus Christ. He made one sacrifice once and for all which made all others needless and ineffectual.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? |
First of all, the best and authorized English translation of the Bible, the King James, calls her a maidservant, not a slave. Second of all, the following verse, Exodus 21:8, makes it clear that the daughter will become betrothed to her new master. It is more like a dowry arrangement.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual unseemliness - Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. |
That would be your wife. Other women are not permissible.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? |
Lawful slavery in the Old Testament was connected to the righteous holy war against the heathen, which war is no longer lawful because the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ won the final victory over death, sin and Satan. True faith in him will make a man a conqueror.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? |
The magistrate bears the sword to punish evil-doers, as Paul states: no private man can be a judge or king himself. As for governments, although they are ordained by God, they are comprised of sinful men: even the Roman empire's authority was approved despite its paganism and sin.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? |
The dietary laws were part of the now subsumed ceremonial laws of the temple worship. Homosexuality is a violation of the moral law, which is still in effect in heaven, especially of the seventh commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, which forbids all unchaste thoughts, words and actions.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ. Indeed, Paul says, nature teaches that long hair is a shame to a man but a glory to the woman.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? |
Another ceremonial law made needless by the grace of Jesus Christ.
| bacasper wrote: |
| 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) |
The matters of crops and clothing are ceremonial. The violations of the moral law, such as vain oaths and adultery, are punishable by the civil magistrate.
| bacasper wrote: |
| I know many have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. |
God's word indeed endures forever. Jesus said, For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Even the ceremonial laws remain in the Bible to point us to the promises and prophecies made in the old testament which pointed to Christ and tell of God's holiness. |
Self-deluding fantasy which takes as a given what must be first proved. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Omkara wrote: |
| What I have trouble understanding is this. Why is it so rare to find a Christian willing to sit down and honestly talk about these textual inconsistencies? . |
because it takes ages... and ages... and there is much that someone without faith simply cannot understand. That is impossible for you to understand when you rely on ones own limited human logic.
I have tackled some before on here. They are always easily dispelled when you have a full understanding of scripture as a whole; context: when you have researched the original hebrew and its various meanings and translations, etc.
in the bible, God challenges people to test and search scripture. It requires faith, patience and effort. By contrast, people nowadays live in an impatient, demanding culture of quick and easy answers. Thus it becomes easy for an atheist on the internet to post up a load of verses taken out of context, using the most ambiguous translation available from the host of unauthentic and deliberately false/misleading translations, ignoring context, and decieve the lazy into quickly thinking the bible is flawed. Not so. |
Good answer.
People don't want to hear the truth so they hang on to beliefs that justify their lifestyles. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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But the Bible is flawed; it is the concept that the bible is not flawed that gets us into so much trouble.
Show me one line in the bible--in any translation--which could not have been written by a fallible man of his age and time, subject also to that same "limited" logic. . .
It is the claim of the bible as an infallible document which is exactly the problem.
I do not buy the claim that a man or woman without this "faith" stuff cannot understand. I can simply counter and say that you can't understand the great liberation of saying, "I think; I am."
Saying that I cannot understand is a non-argument.[/i] |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus spoke in Parables and the scripture is full of paradoxes, for the simple reason that God's wisdom confuses the world's wisdom. It's brillance is displayed in Christ.
Many people don't want to accept this because they want to make their own way of salvation; and that's the tension. To accept Christ means you have to humble yourself unto God's wisdom and His plan for salvation.
It's kind of like Neo and the matrix. He couldn't understand the matrix until he took the red pill.
You want to understand the Kingdom of God..then take the first step of allowing Jesus Christ into your life. Then test Him to see if He is real or not.
What do you have to lose? |
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