Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Gopher]

Allow me to rephrase: continuing the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq keeps the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq. And we retain the initiative. Not so if we suddenly leave.

I remind you that the real end of the war in Vietnam came about when Nixon made an alliance with China, the threat of an expansionistic China contrary to American interests in the Far East ceased in one fell swoop, Vietnam and all Southeast Asia itself became an irrelevant sideshow, and the Soviets had to reassess and rearrange their entire world position. For all of Nixon's pathology, this was an undeniably brilliant move.

We cannot do this at present in the Middle East. We keep the fight going in Iraq, strengthen Saudi Arabia here, Israel there, walk the tightrope with Pakistan, continue to watch Syria isolate itself, pressure Iran on its nuclear weapons ambitions, and hope for a break with the next president who will find the best way out (which would be anyone but Obama, on this issue, at least).

[yawarakaijin]

I hear this often. Fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan keeps the war out of our backyard. Just how are you going to gaurantee this? Are you suggesting the 100% of all terrorists are going to flock to Iraq and Afghanistan like lemmings? That not a single one of them is capable of making the logical leap to attack America directly, again.

Was it not one of Bin Ladens stated goals, to draw america into a bloody conflict in the middle east? Just how are we staying on the initiative? By doing everything bin laden wanted us to do?

[Gopher]

There are no guarantees; and none of us can speak of 100% of anything. This is the best option before us, at the moment, however. There only remain, if it has not been made clear to you yet, bad and worse options, by the way.

Also, we are not playing bin Laden's game. He is the one spending the rest of his life on the run or hiding in a cave, remember?

[yawarakaijin]

Wasn't he living in a cave before all this went down?

[Gopher]

I see. Another one more interested in demonstrating his wit than exchanging views. Sure, you got me. He was living in a cave before all this went down. Therefore you have invalidated all that I have said, above. Congratulations.

By the way, what happened to his jihad? And what is Israel's status today?

[yawarakaijin]

Hey Gopher, long day here. Just trying to lighten the mood a bit. It wasn't an attempt to discredit your point of view. I've always respected your approach to debate even though I rarely agree with you.

As you pointed out, there are no good options now. I guess we simply disagree in regards to which is the bad option and which is the worse option.

In my opinion the invasion of Iraq was simply a blunderous mistake. I don't see how maintining it in it's current form is the better solution. I simply cannot justify support for an administration that has shown so much incompetence. ( I'm not insinuating that you do )

Some may argue that no matter what strategy we employ, there are going to be religious nutballs out to get us. I just may agree with that.

Support of the war in Iraq then hinges on what we as Americans, Canadians, Europeans hold dear. I personally cannot legitimize the death of innocent civilians in the hope that the situation we forced on them "may" be keeping me a little safer. I am not arguing that we are the cause of every single death in Iraq but the invasion was the catlyst. I certainly cannot accept this administrations strategy when ,on so many levels, they have proven utter incompetence. If we can't do it right then get out. I don't believe that we are accomplishing anything there
anymore.

I often hear the phrase, "we broke it, we have to fix it" in terms of americas current justification of the war. Tell me. Where is this "fixing" taking place. Why are there still electrical shortages. Why are people short of the neccesities of life when the Iraqi government has just reported a huge surplus from oil revenues. What the hell is this administation doing? Either we give them their autonomy or we step up to the plate, wipe out the militias and bring schooling, electricity, water and saftey to these people. The only thing I see the occupation breeding is resentment.

[Pluto]

It is true that Iraq and Vietnam are two different entities. Vietnam was much more homogeneous than Iraq is today. So you are right to point out that there are many different interests in Iraq concerning everything from interpretations of religion to differing languages.
However, all of this notwithstanding, you ask who are friends are in Iraq. They would be the ones who voted for their parliament, they�re the ones who start businesses and are trying to take ownerships of their lives, their businesses, their properties and their country. There is no greater peace dividend than that produced by free markets and free peoples. In essence, this is liberty.
You mentioned the Mehdi Army. Al-Sadr is working against Iraqi interests more than you realize. The Mehdi Army wishes to implement its views on the Iraqi people via coercion. Al-Sadr is working with interests in Iran to accomplish these goals. By that same token, the Sunnis are working with the Wahabists in Saudi to accomplish their goals. There is a real danger of more civil strife and war if we leave so we must stay to make sure that Iraqis can live together peacefully.
The Kurds are another element of Iraq. To be sure, they present another challenge. They want independence but we have got to make sure that they are willing to make a commitment to the Baghdad government. If we can get the Sunnis and Shia to work together peacefully, then the Kurds will come on board for a peaceful and prosperous Iraq.
Of course, there has never been a good war nor has there been a bad peace. Our reasons for being in Iraq, notwithstanding, we are there. Any sudden withdraw will ensure more war, more strife and more problems for the West. Indeed, there will be more tyranny and that tyranny will make its way back to us. It is no easy task to shine the light of liberty on Iraq, so to speak. But , if we can free Iraq from the ideology of tyranny, Wahabism and extremism; that would mean the greatest peace dividend for the West. Should we leave now, there will be more war and strife. There will be a camp for ideologues in Al-Qaeda to spread their vices of death and destruction. Iran will also have a greater hand. Point is, no matter what you think of the merits of going into Iraq, leaving Iraq will only make things worse, much worse.

[yawarakaijin]

[Gopher]

Further, with respect to Pluto's post, "whether we should invade Iraq" is simply not a helpful issue to discuss here in the year 2008. I think, Yawarakaijin, you move too far into a value-laden discourse concerned with fault and blame for us to find much common ground on what to do about Iraq today.

Fact is, I am not even discussing these issues. We are addressing different questions entirely, I am afraid. You seem to be on Chalmers Johnson's pathway while I am on the Iraq Study Group's.

[bucheon bum]

[yawarakaijin]

While you may see my position as to value laden let me assure you that it does not come from any bleeding heart liberal perspective of the world. To me, it's pure pragmatism. No matter which motives or attributes we wish to assign to our actions, the fact remains that iraqis do not share our view in terms of the occupation of their country. Current arab sensibilities simply do not allow for a christian occupying force. Am I a bleeding heart liberal or a pragmatist for recognizing this fact?

While I would advocate a military withdrawl, by no means do I support complete disengagement. I would invite all parties (minus al-qaeda of course) with a stake in the future of Iraq to sit down to formal talks, including regional players. Make it clear that no one group is under threat of being marginalized and pledge a more effective distribution of monies in order to facilitate real reconstruction. It should also be made clear that there would be penalities for any side resorting to violence. While I admit it may be somewhat fanciful, I do believe a muslim UN peacekeeping force should be one option available in the wake of a US military withdrawl.

If they can't work under those conditions, time to wash our hands of the whole mess and take individual terrorist threats as they come. Exactly what every other country faced with terrorism is forced to do.

[stillnotking]

The Flypaper Theory versus Common Sense, round five hundred. Fight!!

[Kuros]

[Nowhere Man]

Not exactly on topic, but Kuros, you mentioned the double down option.

How long would you give the double down to work?

Also, wouldn't that doubly overextend forces?

[Gopher]