Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - They're not really that rude, right?

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

They're not really that rude, right?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 23, 24, 25 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject:

Nice list man, i agree, most ofthose things are extremely rude by my standards as well. Heck, some of them are even illegal.

Quote:

parking on the sidewalk
parking in the middle of a crosswalk
parking on a ramp for wheelchairs, strollers, bikes
people barging onto the elevator while people have yet to get off
customers calling "ya" to servers instead of "yogi yo"
kids not greeting older people in the elevator of their buildings (not a big deal)
playing the piano at 6:30 in the morning and 11:30 at night
people walking right by a mother struggling to open a door while she was carring her baby
people walking right by another mother who was struggling to open a door while pushing a stroller (in fact 3 people barged in front of this mom once she got managed to get the door open)
people cutting in line
a man smoking in the elevator
cars that had parked illegally blocking other cars in with their emergency brake and then refusing to come down and move their car
a women who coughed right into the face of a worker at a bakery
several crazy driving events
collisions of people on the sidewalks when there is more than enough room for three or four people
scooter/motorcycles speeding down the sidewalk
enough to make me feel comfortable using the generalization.

That being said though, you'd see half of those things at your local Dennys at 2:00am in Canada as well... PLUS a few brawls.

I'm curious though, I've taken to looking up some manners guides since were on the subject, and am wondering how polite you or your friends back home would be by these standards?

http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/tableman.html
Look at:
The Secrets of the Formal Place Setting
How to Use the Fork, Knife, and Spoon
How to Use a Napkin
Tips and Pitfalls
What You Can Eat with Your Fingers

or these?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4337716.stm

The thing is, if you are holding a spotlight to Korean manners,

1. I expect that you fully understand the rules and guidelines of Korean manners.
2. That you yourself follow them.
3. That you understand that making general (and racist) statements is bad manners in itself.

If I recall, you have mentioned a few times that you have bad manners - perhaps if you are seeing bad manners around you so much, it might be a reflection of your own behavior.

Me personally, while I note that there are a lot of people with manner I detest, I find that when confronted by a kind example, most people will head in the right direction.

JamesFord

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: my personal playground

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject:

Css wrote:

Maybe if more people were 'rude' and told other people they were fat, we wouldnt have half the population being obese..

Sometimes honesty can be brutal...but I dont think it can ever be rude..

So, since coming to Korea I suspect you've lost a lot of weight. Otherwise your theory doesn't hold much water.

Css

Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Location: South of the river

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:24 am Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

People don't go around calling each other fat, and they don't have the obesity rates of the U.S. Why would being abusive be a good thing?
Insulting someone because of their weight is a form of abuse that is too often accepted in Korea just as beating your wife is too often ignored by the authorities.

Telling someone they are fat is not abuse....Being insulting about their obesity is abuse...there is a difference...

I have some slightly larger korean female friends and they constantly get told they are fat..Nobody is being mean, they are just saying it...Its not malicious..

I think you need to distinguish being insults and simple facts.

Css

Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Location: South of the river

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:26 am Post subject:

JamesFord wrote:

So, since coming to Korea I suspect you've lost a lot of weight. Otherwise your theory doesn't hold much water.

Last time i was here i lost about 50lbs...ive been back here for about 2 months now and im down 10....after having gained while i was back home..

Zaria32

Joined: 04 Dec 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:41 am Post subject:

My experience is that Koreans are very polite..

Typhoon

Joined: 29 May 2007
Location: Daejeon

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:23 am Post subject:

Quote:

I'm curious though, I've taken to looking up some manners guides since were on the subject, and am wondering how polite you or your friends back home would be by these standards?

http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/tableman.html
Look at:
The Secrets of the Formal Place Setting
How to Use the Fork, Knife, and Spoon
How to Use a Napkin
Tips and Pitfalls
What You Can Eat with Your Fingers

or these?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4337716.stm

The thing is, if you are holding a spotlight to Korean manners,

1. I expect that you fully understand the rules and guidelines of Korean manners.
2. That you yourself follow them.
3. That you understand that making general (and racist) statements is bad manners in itself.

If I recall, you have mentioned a few times that you have bad manners - perhaps if you are seeing bad manners around you so much, it might be a reflection of your own behavior.

Me personally, while I note that there are a lot of people with manner I detest, I find that when confronted by a kind example, most people will head in the right direction.

Sadly, I often am rude. I do enjoy not being held accountable for my actions when I am in a hurry or don't feel like being polite. Sometimes it is pretty nice to be able to park how you want without feeling too guilty about bothering the people around you. I remember when I was learning to drive in Canada and did a horrible parking job and a guy left a sign on my car that said "if you park like you fcuk then I feel sorry for you family tree." That just wouldn't happen here and that is pretty nice sometimes that people don't hold you accountable for your bad actions. So the being rude thing has two sides to it in my mind. It is not all bad. Also, you are right...when I don't feel like being polite is when I have most of my negative experiences in Korea. When someone sees another person being kind or questioning bad behaviour they tend to follow example. As for the racist part I suspect that we will not see eye to eye on the matter. I just don't think that making a negative generalization is racist in itself. I think it has to be more malicious or without base to be considered racist.

doggyji

Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:

"Koreans are rude." I think a statement like this as itself alone is too inclusive, unfair, useless and oversimplistic. It amounts to nothing. I don't think it has any value as a generalization to make sense of things around us. It's a worthless approach. Doe: "Hey, Joe. You've been to Korea. How are Koreans like? Are they rude?" Joe: "Oh, they are rude as hell." Doe: "That sucks. They must not have concepts of manners, politeness and courtesy." If this is the end of the conversation regarding this topic, is it fair? Is it more or less accurate? My point is that one simple stupid sentence like that doesn't convey any worth if your intention is to give the listener useful information. "Doe, they tend not to be so aware of strangers on the streets. They usually don't mind physical contacts with strangers and it may come off as very pushy to you at times. However, if you are registered in their personal radar or social circle, you will realize they have their own codes of politeness and respect. Also, you will notice there are differences in their behavior between age groups...blah blah" The above paragraph is still full of generalizations, of course. It's a fact that we can't go on without a certain degree of generalizations. But you do see the difference.

Thunndarr

Joined: 30 Sep 2003

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The thing is, if you are holding a spotlight to Korean manners,

1. I expect that you fully understand the rules and guidelines of Korean manners.
2. That you yourself follow them.
3. That you understand that making general (and racist) statements is bad manners in itself.

You should really be careful when you make this claim, because if this is true, then it also means that Koreans who generalize about foreigners are also racist.

It is a fact that Koreans generalize about foreigners. Is it then a fact that all these Koreans are racist?

(Note: for the pedantically inclined, I did not claim that ALL Koreans generalize about foreigners, so let's stave off that red-herring right now.)

Edit: I saw the links you posted above...Didn't you once say (to me) that posting links was the lazy man's way of arguing? Wink

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:

Thunndarr wrote:

Quote:

Yup, you're right. But if you also notice - I'VE FREAKING TYPED LOADS OF PAGES ON THIS THREAD ALONE. Make no mistake about it Thundarr, I've went over my point many times on this thread (to some people's chagrin).

But I'll outline it for you, because you've seemed to have focused only on my last post, and not the dozen before;

Saying "Koreans are rude" is an ignorant and far too sweeping a statement, and I believe it jumps the border of racism. Not only does it hold an entire nation to the whims of the accusers own standard of "rude", but it does so without ever explaining it to those being judged.

But yeah, just for arguments sake, I'm going to agree with you when people say "Foreigners are rude", that they too cross that racist line.

Now, if someone posted something like "In my experience, I've found that a lot of Koreans are rude by Western standards", I think that'd be a far more understandable statement.

But just "Koreans are rude", smacks of something far more pungent.

I hope that clearly explains my point for you Thundarr, so that you're not needing to look through any links.

Thunndarr

Joined: 30 Sep 2003

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I hope that clearly explains my point for you Thundarr, so that you're not needing to look through any links.

Seems I've struck a nerve. Hey, I wasn't the one who said posting links was the lazy man's way to argue.

Second, I find the notion that making the generalization "Koreans are rude" is racist to be completely unjustified. A) When making said generalization, a proper reading is probably that the speaker means that he finds a higher percenatage of Koreans to be rude than wherever he/she comes from.

And B) It should hardly be construed as racist unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the speaker is indeed lashing out at Koreans the race and not Koreans the culture. I find it far more probable that instead of finding Koreans rude because of their race (which would be racist) that someone who finds Korean culture to be rude (but not, say, Japanese or Thai or Chinese) then that person is not, in fact, racist but simply comparing two different cultures.

And no, I haven't read the pages upon pages you've posted in this thread, because quite frankly, I'm going to extend to you the same discourtesy you extended to me in our last discussion. And, really, if you are arguing that the foreigners are racist against Koreans because they find the culture here to be ruder than wherever they came from, well, quite frankly, that's an absurd position.

Yu_Bum_suk

Joined: 25 Dec 2004

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject:

doggyji wrote:

"Koreans are rude." I think a statement like this as itself alone is too inclusive, unfair, useless and oversimplistic. It amounts to nothing. I don't think it has any value as a generalization to make sense of things around us. It's a worthless approach.

Doe: "Hey, Joe. You've been to Korea. How are Koreans like? Are they rude?"
Joe: "Oh, they are rude as hell."
Doe: "That sucks. They must not have concepts of manners, politeness and courtesy."

If this is the end of the conversation regarding this topic, is it fair? Is it more or less accurate? My point is that one simple stupid sentence like that doesn't convey any worth if your intention is to give the listener useful information.

"Doe, they tend not to be so aware of strangers on the streets. They usually don't mind physical contacts with strangers and it may come off as very pushy to you at times. However, if you are registered in their personal radar or social circle, you will realize they have their own codes of politeness and respect. Also, you will notice there are differences in their behavior between age groups...blah blah"
The above paragraph is still full of generalizations, of course. It's a fact that we can't go on without a certain degree of generalizations. But you do see the difference.

I think that's a very accurate description of the mindset. I can imagine a Korean who's as ignorant of Canada as most Canadians are of Korea saying something like...

"Canadians are so rude have no respect for people within their social circle. Yesterday I saw a grandfather give his grandson a gift of money and the kid just casually took it with one hand. Then at dinner I sat there for 30 minutes with no one noticing my cup was empty."

Saying Canadians are rude because of such things would obviously be pretty ignorant, just like it's ignorant to call Koreans rude becasue they don't have the same concept of 'personal space'.

However, if that same Korean were living in Quebec and noticed that a number of children and strangers called him 'tu' while calling white people of the same age 'vous', you could damn well conclude that some Canadians have a racist rudeness imbedded in their mindset when it comes to foreigners, couldn't you? And if that same Korean had strangers yelling 'Ni hao!' to him everywhere he went, he could rightfully conclude that Canadians have a bizzare fascination-mockery complex when it comes to foreigners, right?

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:

Thunndarr wrote:

Quote:

I hope that clearly explains my point for you Thundarr, so that you're not needing to look through any links.

Seems I've struck a nerve. Hey, I wasn't the one who said posting links was the lazy man's way to argue.

If you want to bring that thread up again, why not post there? Perhaps then you'll actually put your muscles where your mouth is.

Quote:

Second, I find the notion that making the generalization "Koreans are rude" is racist to be completely unjustified. A) When making said generalization, a proper reading is probably that the speaker means that he finds a higher percenatage of Koreans to be rude than wherever he/she comes from.

Look at these similar "generalizations"
Whites are greedy.
Blacks are violent.
Asians are stingy.
Japanese are ugly.
Koreans are rude
Chinese are dirty.
The Irish are lazy.
Ukrainians are stupid.

are they not racist?
Or how about these?
The PM of Canada saying that "Natives are lazy"
The President of the US saying that "Blacks are violent"
Jay Leno saying that "Chinese are stingy"
A news anchor saying that "the French are dirty"

You don't think they'd catch heat for them?

Quote:

And B) It should hardly be construed as racist unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the speaker is indeed lashing out at Koreans the race and not Koreans the culture. I find it far more probable that instead of finding Koreans rude because of their race (which would be racist) that someone who finds Korean culture to be rude (but not, say, Japanese or Thai or Chinese) then that person is not, in fact, racist but simply comparing two different cultures.

So, I have to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" what someone is saying is racist, yet you let these absurd generalizations slide?? Now I know you're here looking for a spat.

Quote:

And no, I haven't read the pages upon pages you've posted in this thread, because quite frankly, I'm going to extend to you the same discourtesy you extended to me in our last discussion. And, really, if you are arguing that the foreigners are racist against Koreans because they find the culture here to be ruder than wherever they came from, well, quite frankly, that's an absurd position.

Once again, I'll say this, if you want to revive that thread, bump it. I'll be happy to post there and go toe to toe with you with before and after pictures. I think your theories are bunk, and I'll put myself up against you on them. You train with 3 squats a week, I'll train my style, and we'll see who shows results.

If you would please though, why not stop sniping at me from another thread and deal solely with this one?

Thunndarr

Joined: 30 Sep 2003

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Thunndarr wrote:

Quote:

I hope that clearly explains my point for you Thundarr, so that you're not needing to look through any links.

Seems I've struck a nerve. Hey, I wasn't the one who said posting links was the lazy man's way to argue.

If you want to bring that thread up again, why not post there? Perhaps then you'll actually put your muscles where your mouth is.

Quote:

So, I have to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" what someone is saying is racist, yet you let these absurd generalizations slide?? Now I know you're here looking for a spat.

Quote:

A: This isn't about that other thread, this is about your lack of consistency regarding how you expect others to behave and how you behave yourself. The reference to the other thread was just a convenient and relevant reference.

Quote:

Look at these similar "generalizations"
Whites are greedy.
Blacks are violent.
Asians are stingy.
Japanese are ugly.
Koreans are rude
Chinese are dirty.
The Irish are lazy.
Ukrainians are stupid.

Red herring. I never claimed that generalizations couldn't be racist did I? I'll thank you for not trying to switch the goal-posts in the future.

B: If you'd like to get into examples of generalizations that may or may not be racist, take a look at the following.

Koreans are very detail oriented.
Koreans place great value on education.
Koreans are bad drivers.
Koreans like spicy food.
Koreans like kimchi.
Korans like rice.
Koreans are very nationalistic.
Koreans are rude.

Hmm...Now, in my interpretation, these generalizations would be commentary about Korean culture.

In your interpretation, both the good and the bad would be considered racist statements, so even if you pay Koreans a compliment, you're a racist. (I mean, you can't have it both ways can you? Only disparaging remarks are racist? That's non-sensical.)

I prefer my view. I like to think that someone need not be a racist to pay Koreans a compliment, and need not be a racist to offer up criticism.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Only disparaging remarks are racist?

When they are voiced as condescending - yes. Look through this whole thread and notice how many remarks sweep up Koreans in a negative light.

Oh wait, you're jumping in on page 7 of this thread, would you like me to quote some of them for you, or are you able to look at what was already written by yourself?

Here are some definitions of "racism/racist" that I think are applicable.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist

Quote:

-Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
-The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Now many a poster has claimed that Koreans are inferior when it comes to manners and IMO that counts as racism.

Basically, when you put out negative stereo-typical remarks about an entire race/group of people, you run the risk of them being taken as racist.

If you want to dismiss my list because it doesn't conform to YOUR limited scope of this example, that's fine - but it does not preclude their connection.

((Also, I commented on you posting up links because you told me to "go here" - a 20 page thread on another forum - to find out what you were talking about. If you had explained your point over and over - as I have done here - and then given those links, I would not have called you lazy. Instead, you posted them to MAKE your position, not SUPPORT it.

But, I'm guessing no one on this thread has any idea of what we're talking about, so I suggest that if you have a problem with what I said there, you bump that old thread and we can have at it again. Or - there's always PMs))

Roch

Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:20 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Typhoon wrote:

Korean travellers are considered rude by airline workers and people who live in tourist destinations. Some of this could be due to cultural misunderstanding, but when enough people have similar experiences with Korean travellers then it probably comes down to rudeness. Koreans are rude. Most Koreans will readily tell you that they are rude. It is the way things are here.

Mind telling me what exactly rude is?

I mean, I've seen my share of people in my life that I would consider "rude", but I always thought that was cultural or personal.

So, mind sharing with me the definitive guide to manners?

Am I the only one on this board who believes that you're from Toronto and went to York or Trent?

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 23, 24, 25 Next
Page 7 of 25

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe