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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Obama: PA voters cling to guns, anti-immigration, religion |
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Obama speaks in San Francisco. I provided the whole speech for context, as read together the statement sounds more like Obama is simply thinking out loud. The setup and the actual Kinsleyan Gaffe bolded.
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So, it depends on where you are, but I think it�s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre�they�re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to white working-class don�t wanna work � don�t wanna vote for the black guy. That�s�there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it�s sort of a race thing.
Here�s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn�t buy it. And when it�s delivered by � it�s true that when it�s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.
But � so the questions you�re most likely to get about me, �Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?� What they wanna hear is so we�ll give you talking points about what we�re proposing � to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama�s gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we�re gonna provide healthcare for every American.
But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there�s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing�s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it�s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren�t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you�ll find is, is that people of every background � there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you�ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I�d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you�re doing what you�re doing. |
Bitterness driving anti-trade sentiment? I have to admit, I'm comforted to hear that Obama's anti-NAFTA stance is really bunk. Too bad it had to come out like this.
As for the bolded part, I wonder how much airplay this will get. This is a bit of a departure from Obama's 'we have gay friends in the Red States, too' attitude.
Last edited by Kuros on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sadly, it's already being twisted by both of the other candidates.
Clinton's response
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Clinton on Obama: 'Pennsylvanians don't need a president who looks down on them'
Hillary Clinton, jumping on Obama's San Francisco comments on the bitterness in small-town Pennsylvania during a speech in Philadelphia just now, hit Obama hard:
Clinton said she'd seen in the media that "my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter."
"Well, that�s not my experience," she continued. "As I travel around Pennsylvania, I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They�re working hard every day for a better future for themseves and their children."
"Pennsylvanians don�t need a president who looks down on them. They need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, and your families," she said, implicitly casting Obama as an elitist. |
It bothers me quite a bit that anyone supporting Obama is painted as an elitist, snob or latte sipping liberal. Yes, some of that is the media, but certainly you see the same kind of statements coming from other places.
McCain's response
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Asked to respond, McCain adviser Steve Schmidt called it a "remarkable statement and extremely revealing."
"It shows an elitism and condescension towards hardworking Americans that is nothing short of breathtaking," Schmidt said. "It is hard to imagine someone running for president who is more out of touch with average Americans." |
Those of you who call yourselves Democrats should be worried about the two other candidates playing to the lowest common denominator. It's downright ugly. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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The problem with Obama's campaign is that he and his staff have a habit of saying things that are common enough sentiments among members of the political classes, but which aren't the sort of thing that should be said publically in a campaign.
I wasn't too surprised to hear that Obama isn't privately commited to an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I was a bit surprised that Samantha Powers thought that was an okay thing to admit in a media interview. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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The problem with Obama's campaign is that they have this bizarre and highly unusual technique of treating the voters like adults.
Like one of the characters on Sesame Street used to say, "That's such a crazy idea, it just might work."
Take some deep breathes, Kuros.   |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| And this is admittedly a bit of speculation on my part, but I seriously doubt that, in private, Hillary Clinton and her entourage speak with the utmost compassion and respect about the kind of working-class folk who support the Christian Coalition and whatnot. Heck, I've even heard that top-level Republicans make fun of those people behind their backs. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Being from the RUST BELT myself, the biggest problem is when you listen to 'Democrats', you constantly hear from the 'liberal elite' about how whites have had all the jobs and are priveledged and so forth. That message plays fine in Boston or New York or San Francisco where you can see the wealth distributed that appears more in such a way.
But in the Midwest, that same message loses its message as very few people there can relate to that or understand that, as most whites there can't afford to take a trip, take a day off, and definetely cant send their kids to the 'right' schools or even make much more above whatever the local state minimum wage is there. So the message white liberal 'we need to distribute the wealth to minorities' doesn't play that well. Of course some of those same people will see Obama, and see that their very miniscule thin slice of the pie appears to soon be getting much smaller in their eyes, when the democrat message seems to constantly parrot that.
I'm not saying I personally agree (as my personal big picture is much different), but being from there, it's a constant worry/concern you'll hear in those areas. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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The problem with Obama's campaign is that they have this bizarre and highly unusual technique of treating the voters like adults.
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Well, for the most part, but when you say stuff like...
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And it�s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren�t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
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...you are implicity stating that (a) the worldview(including the religion) of these working-class people is incorrect, and that (b) you, unlike the particular working-class people, have the intellectual capacity to analyze that worldview and see its flaws. There is no getting around the implied intellectual superiority in what Obama said.
And, accurate though it may be, Obama's analysis is not something that's gonna sell on the campaign trail. I don't think there are too many Reagan Democrats who are gonna say "Gee, he's right, I HAVE been duped all these years into supporting bad policies. Guess I'll vote for him next time". |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
Those of you who call yourselves Democrats should be worried about the two other candidates playing to the lowest common denominator. It's downright ugly. |
As someone who leans Democrat, I'm not going to have some hardcore Obambite tell me that I should be ashamed. The sentiment that Obama expressed is genuine, stereotypical liberal elitism. The right-wing exploits this sentiment to get voters among the working class, even though it is mostly a kind of exagerration and stereotype. Well, Obama really slipped up. I'm not the only one who thinks so. Look at the comments section of the link I provided in the first post:
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| I'm a pretty big Obama supporter and even I'm left saying "yikes" and cringing at this one. Major league gaffe. |
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| Major gaffe. And I'm an obama supporter. |
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| I know exactly what Obama was trying to say, and I do indeed agree with it. Doesn't change the fact that, yep, he REALLY stepped in it with this one. Yikes. The Clintons and McCain are going to feed off this statement for a long time to come. |
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| I'm a huge Obama fan, and am very disappointed at him with this statement. I don't think the statement itself is bad. He was in the midst of trying to say that there's reasons why Middle America is pissed off. However, it just doesn't come good. I don't see how this doesn't destroy his candidacy. This is a huge mistake, and boggles my mind as to why he would lack judgment to say such a thing when he knows people can take it the wrong way. Very stupid statement. |
And its not shameful in anyway to point that out. Politics is for the big boys and girls. You're welcome to come out and play, but don't cry 'unfair!' when your candidate stubs his toe.
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Now, I think Obama's done a generally good job of trying to balance his appeal to intellectuals while not jeopardizing himself with the working class. I actually disagree with OTOH when he says:
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| The problem with Obama's campaign is that he and his staff have a habit of saying things that are common enough sentiments among members of the political classes, but which aren't the sort of thing that should be said publically in a campaign. |
I would disagree. Obama has been pretty much on-message. As I have said, Obama is trying to play to appealing to the Red States, and he has done very well in the Northern West Plains states, as well as the Northwest itself. He does not have a problem attracting rural votes whatsoever. That's precisely because of his attack on the 'Red State-Blue State' status quo.
Obama panders, too. Look at his position on re-negotiating NAFTA. You can't tell me, especially after what he has said in SanFran, that he actually believes that. So, I don't think this is a case of charateristic honesty or 'straight-talk' on his part.
But, OTOH is right about this:
| OTOH wrote: |
| I seriously doubt that, in private, Hillary Clinton and her entourage speak with the utmost compassion and respect about the kind of working-class folk who support the Christian Coalition and whatnot. Heck, I've even heard that top-level Republicans make fun of those people behind their backs. |
Again, thats why I called it a Kinsleyan Gaffe. A Kinsleyan Gaffe is when a politician speaks his honest opinion.
Obama's reputation as an elitist is somewhat unmerited. Yes, he has the vote of the liberal elite 'wine-rack' Democrats. And he's quite intellectual. But he might yet be the best President for the poor since LBJ. And Clinton's reputation as an advocate for the poor is also similarly problematic. It, too, is based entirely on her base of support. The true advocate for working class issues, Edwards, is long gone.
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Being from the RUST BELT myself, the biggest problem is when you listen to 'Democrats', you constantly hear from the 'liberal elite' about how whites have had all the jobs and are priveledged and so forth. |
Is that really an Obama message? I do not get the sense that he's touting affirmative action, or any of the old messages of the 60s.
Obama has done a great job until now of trying to embrace the entire country. But, he honestly stated that there's a huge difference between how people in SanFran view the race and how people in the Rust Belt view the race. This is the truth! Kinsleyan Gaffe! What's even more unfortunate, is that he's just a few words off of a completely uncontroversial message: Hey, SanFran Obama supporters, PA is not like here, and this is why . . .
I have some sympathy for Obama on this one. But, looking at his statements, especially if you take them out of context (I put them in context), they look baaaaaaaad. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Kuros/OTOH exchange:
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I actually disagree with OTOH when he says:
Quote:
The problem with Obama's campaign is that he and his staff have a habit of saying things that are common enough sentiments among members of the political classes, but which aren't the sort of thing that should be said publically in a campaign.
I would disagree. Obama has been pretty much on-message. As I have said, Obama is trying to play to appealing to the Red States, and he has done very well in the Northern West Plains states, as well as the Northwest itself. He does not have a problem attracting rural votes whatsoever. That's precisely because of his attack on the 'Red State-Blue State' status quo.
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Just so we're clear, I wasn't disagreeing that Obama is doing a good job overall of playing to the red states. My main point was that he and his staffers have a habit of talking in public as if they were hashing out political strategy in a backroom somewhere. I was thinking specifically of Samantha Powers' gaffe in London, whomever's letter to the Canadian PMO, and now Obama's sociological analysis of Pennsylvania voters. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Obama replies to the controversy...
http://tinyurl.com/5vdhl9
I agree with Andrew Sullivan that it's too early to say that this gaffe will be a campaign-killer. The Jeremiah Wright thing should have been a killer, given the basic laws of politics, but it wasn't. Obama has a knack for landing on all fours, like a cat.
His gaffe could cost him a lot of votes in Pennsylvania, though, and help keep Hillary more viable than she might otherwise have been. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Truth hurts sometimes. And yes, it was a bit condescending. Bad move on Obama's part but at least it was now and not in the Fall. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Obama replies to the controversy...
http://tinyurl.com/5vdhl9
I agree with Andrew Sullivan that it's too early to say that this gaffe will be a campaign-killer. The Jeremiah Wright thing should have been a killer, given the basic laws of politics, but it wasn't. Obama has a knack for landing on all fours, like a cat.
His gaffe could cost him a lot of votes in Pennsylvania, though, and help keep Hillary more viable than she might otherwise have been. |
Andrew, the obsessive Clinton-hater who hasn't had perspective on this race since January, is probably right on this one. But between Wright's remarks and his own, Obama just lost his shot at the majority of the white vote in every state but NC and OR.
| OTOH wrote: |
| My main point was that he and his staffers have a habit of talking in public as if they were hashing out political strategy in a backroom somewhere. I was thinking specifically of Samantha Powers' gaffe in London, whomever's letter to the Canadian PMO, and now Obama's sociological analysis of Pennsylvania voters. |
I suppose you're right. The Obama campaign has been less circumspect than he himself has been over the campaign. But, given the Clinton campaign's own sins in this regard (Carville's career needs to be shot), I was a little slow to take your meaning.
| Bucheon Bum wrote: |
| Bad move on Obama's part but at least it was now and not in the Fall. |
Yeah, I think he'll weather this one. Obama proved in his handling of the Wright fiasco that he doesn't have a glass jaw. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Last night I was at a local bar in small town PA. The crowd there wasn't bitter in any way. They were however just a tad irate at Obama for his comments. Churchs in that town are mostly full on Sundays. Many hunt and most own firearms. They always have done this. The crime rate is extremely low. Obama is full of $hit. And he just lost PA in the general election. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
Those of you who call yourselves Democrats should be worried about the two other candidates playing to the lowest common denominator. It's downright ugly. |
As someone who leans Democrat, I'm not going to have some hardcore Obambite tell me that I should be ashamed. The sentiment that Obama expressed is genuine, stereotypical liberal elitism. The right-wing exploits this sentiment to get voters among the working class, even though it is mostly a kind of exagerration and stereotype. Well, Obama really slipped up. I'm not the only one who thinks so. |
There you go again shooting off at the mouth. First of all, my comment wasn't direct completely at you, but at anyone who considers themselves a Democrat.
Second, the charge of elitism coming from someone who supports a candidate that made $109 million dollars over the last seven years is laughable. Speaking of laughing, maybe you should also consider Hillary Clinton laughed off a question about money her husband was paid to give about free trade. In fact it appears many of the people involved in the Clinton campaign have their hand in the cookie jar:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9433.html
Third, the controversy over the Obama's remarks were started by a Clinton blogger who has been stalking him. I can't wait to hear you defend that RW tactic.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/12/15638/8512/891/494398
Obama's response (but please don't bother to watch it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDow
Last edited by Milwaukiedave on Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Obama is stating the obvious. Small town Americans are always going to be bitter about something.
Thats like saying, "People from New York are rude. They are rude because of the way things are now."
Senator Obama, the master of the obvious. |
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