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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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 Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Again, Jesus. H. Christ, my example was specifically to counter your position that only disparaging or condescending remarks were racist. In case you don't see where this is going, you've basically painted yourself into a logical corner where pretty much anyone who makes any kind of comment about Koreans, positive or negative, is a racist. That is the logical extension of your position, which I find highly non-sensical. Criminy. |
Mind showing me where I said "only"?
I do believe that came from you, and not me. |
Um, I asked you if only disparaging remarks were racist. You answered yes. Gee, I don't know where I could have gotten that crazy notion from.
Since I know you don't like reading links, here's the question and your answer.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
Can you see that? Clear enough for you? Your answer to the question was that, yes, only disparaging remarks are racist.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| I was not trying to prove my point. You specifically stated that only disparaging or condescending remarks towards other races are racist. My example was to point out exactly how stupid a position that was. Thank you for agreeing that your original statement was ridiculous. |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Again, show me where I specifically stated that. |
And again, since you asked.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
| Quote: |
| Race is a VERY loose clarifying term. Personally, I do not like it, but I notice many around the world still use it. Are Jews a race? I think that they are a religion, but many would think otherwise. Race and Culture often coincide for many. perhaps it is YOU that needs to get that through your head. |
Red herring. I thought I'd asked you not to do that? Try to keep up.
| Quote: |
| This is a public forum viewed by all sorts of people. Are you really unable to see that the term "Koreans are rude" might just be offensive to... um... Koreans? Heck, even Dogyyiggi came in here to object to it, and he's one of the most civil posters around. |
Red herring once again. This discussion has never been about what I personally find offensive or not. The discussion has been about your continued allegation that people people who say "Koreans are rude" are racist. You have yet to support that position with anything substantive.
Your position is non-sensical. It seems to me, that according to you, if I uttered the phrase "Koreans are polite" then I would be a racist. Yet I doubt you would find it offensive and you probably wouldn't have called me a racist, and you certainly wouldn't have argued for 8 pages about it.
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Just yesterday a mod had to remove a post about "The Korean race being inferior" from these forums. That kind of tripe has to stop. |
Yeah, that does have to stop. That, however, has nothing to do with this discussion. You really have a problem staying on topic. I suspect it's because you are unable to support your argument. (Red-herrings and goal-post switching are classic signs of someone not having anything substantive to add to the discussion.) |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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It's easier to remember rude behavior because it gets you riled up. The average polite behavior will tend not to be noticed or remembered. Many of the behaviors dubbed as rude are cultural differences, but of course this is not always the case.
In addition, as far as many Koreans are concerned, foreigners occupy a different dimension as far as treatment and rudeness are concerned, sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse.
So I wonder, how did the stereotype that Koreans are rude evolve in the first place? Just a whole lot of whiners on an internet forum got together and decided on a worldwide smear campaign? Or could there actually be something to the stereotype? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Again, Jesus. H. Christ, my example was specifically to counter your position that only disparaging or condescending remarks were racist. In case you don't see where this is going, you've basically painted yourself into a logical corner where pretty much anyone who makes any kind of comment about Koreans, positive or negative, is a racist. That is the logical extension of your position, which I find highly non-sensical. Criminy. |
Mind showing me where I said "only"?
I do believe that came from you, and not me. |
Um, I asked you if only disparaging remarks were racist. You answered yes. Gee, I don't know where I could have gotten that crazy notion from.
Since I know you don't like reading links, here's the question and your answer.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
Can you see that? Clear enough for you? Your answer to the question was that, yes, only disparaging remarks are racist.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| I was not trying to prove my point. You specifically stated that only disparaging or condescending remarks towards other races are racist. My example was to point out exactly how stupid a position that was. Thank you for agreeing that your original statement was ridiculous. |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Again, show me where I specifically stated that. |
And again, since you asked.
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
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Let me clarify for you then. I was saying 'Yes' to them being racist remarks, and more notably so because they were negative.
I notice how you don't bother to link where I elaborate more and say:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=119486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
| Quote: |
| Let me be clear (once again) for you: If you attribute wide sweeping comments to entire races, you run the risk of being labelled a racist (or at least your comments labeled thus). If your comments are negative, you run an even greater risk of it (people are more prone to perk up when they hear stuff like that and take notice). |
But instead, you'd like to stick in your convenient little corner.
"Koreans are rude" is just as ignorant and racist a statement as saying "Jews are cheap" or "blacks are fast". I've given more examples here, but again, you seem to dismiss them when you don't like them.
Here, I'll saying it again for you:
| Quote: |
| Let me be clear (once again) for you: If you attribute wide sweeping comments to entire races, you run the risk of being labelled a racist (or at least your comments labeled thus). If your comments are negative, you run an even greater risk of it (people are more prone to perk up when they hear stuff like that and take notice). |
Is that clear enough of an opinion for you?
When you make sweeping accusations about an entire group of people, you are often doing so out of racial prejudice. That being, that races are separate, different, and un-equal.
Here are some examples from this thread:
| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
no, they are rude.
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| DCJames wrote: |
| They are rude. We need to call them on it. |
| Typhoon wrote: |
| However, there are enough rude Koreans to justify the generalization that Koreans are rude...and not just by foreign standards. Koreans will also talk about the rudeness that occurs here daily. |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Further, I have been told by aquaintances around the world (Europe, SE Asia, Japan, North America) that they consider Koreans rude as a general rule. This also tells me there is more than just cultural references at play. |
| Typhoon wrote: |
| Koreans tend to be rude. Not all of them, but a lot. Calling Koreans rude is not racist. Calling Canadians petty and bitter is not racist. Calling American tourists rude is not racist. Making negative generalizations that have truth to them is not racist. |
I'll ask you this Thundaar, do you think any public figure in the West would get away with saying these comments and not catch heat for them?
Do you think that the above comments would be perfectly acceptable in the West? |
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Typhoon
Joined: 29 May 2007
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe not. Look at the Oprah show. Not too many people were upset at her generalizations of women from around the world. She generalized a large number of women from different countries (not just South Korea). South Koreans were upset with their generalization, but other nationalities were not upset with the generalizations that were made about them and the American public didn't give Oprah any "heat" about her generalizations of South Koreans. The uproar generally came from the Korean public. So, it seems that the average person does understand that generalizations are just that...general comments and not binding statements that encompass an entire nationality. It is not accurate to say "All Koreans are....". You are right about that. But realistically we all make generalizations even if we try not to. I wish that a sociologist was on this board so they could chime in on the use of generalizations and their contribution to racism. It seems that would help decide the argument one way or another. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Is that clear enough of an opinion for you?
When you make sweeping accusations about an entire group of people, you are often doing so out of racial prejudice. That being, that races are separate, different, and un-equal. |
Captain Obvious, nobody is arguing against this position. I highly advise you to read what I've actually written, not what you think I've written. I am not arguing that racism exists. Once again, thanks for introducing yet another completely non-related non-issue into the discussion.
| Quote: |
| I'll ask you this Thundaar, do you think any public figure in the West would get away with saying these comments and not catch heat for them? |
What politicians in the West can or can't get away with has little bearing on this discussion. If you would like a further example, allow me to refer you to the story of the man fired from his position because of the word "niggardly." Yeah, that's right, people assumed he was being racist when he was not. Gee, who around here is making just that same assumption?
http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm
You'll have to take my word for it, since we all know your stance on clicking through links.
| Quote: |
But instead, you'd like to stick in your convenient little corner.
"Koreans are rude" is just as ignorant and racist a statement as saying "Jews are cheap" or "blacks are fast". I've given more examples here, but again, you seem to dismiss them when you don't like them. |
Saying blacks are fast would, in fact, be racist, if the person saying it thought blacks were inherently (genetically) faster than whites. It would not be racist if the person saying it thought blacks had, for example, a superior work ethic which led to them training harder and therefore running faster.
Saying Jews are fast would be racist if the person saying itthought Jews were inherently (genetically) cheaper than other races.
Note: I never argued against the fact that racism exists, Captain Obvous. Let's get back to your final example. (Oh, ps. when I ignore your other examples, it's because, quite frankly, it's not worth my time to wade through all your straw-man arguments.)
Koreans are rude. Well, according to you, this is racist and ignorant. Not just racist and ignorant, but just as racist and ignorant as the other two examples. Just right there, you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have a fcuking clue what you are talking about.
I find that your threshold for what constitutes true racism to be alarmingly low. Personally, I like to reserve terms like racist, Nazi, travesty, holocaust, etc, for things that actually fit those terms. Calling English teachers who've had a bad day racists is not my cup of tea.
Let's examine, exactly, why the term "Koreans are rude" isn't racist.
A) Well, for one, if it was racist, thenit opens up a whole other can of worms wherein any Korean who makes a comment about foreigners is also a racist. Call me crazy, but I don't like to label entire countries as racist. Apparently that's ok with you though.
Just imagine how racist you find it when foreigners say "Koreans are rude" and imagine just how much ruder I find it when the logical extension of your thought process is "Koreans are all racist." Not seeing the connection? Keep looking, you'll get there. In any case, I find that to be quite racist.
B) Yet another can of worms opened up by your entirely misguided and completely irrational thought process is that if I uttered the phrase "Koreans are polite" I am also making a racist statement. Yeah, I'm making a sweeping generalization that (according to you) is judging an entire race of people and by extension, disparaging another (in this case, non-Koreans.)
C) Rudeness/politeness is a learned behavior. Most people (I would say all, but you continually fail to address this point so you are the lone exception I know of personally) are aware of this. Therefore, when commenting upon a group of people's rudeness/politeness, being aware of the aforementioned fact, this automatically precludes the intent of the statement of being racist. Not to mention that, factually, it can be argued that Koreans do not constitute a race in any case.
Now, I know you keep getting hung up on what can be construed as racism. Fair enough. What the ignorant wrongly construe as racism is clearly (as evinced by the last few pages of this thread) beyond my control. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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First off, I find it funny that you've resorted to name-calling to "win" your argument. For someone who sits so high on their horse, why the need to resort to such a low form? Does it somehow make you feel better to try to warp my screen name to your own purposes. Should I now be calling you Thundarrpussy because that is what I think of you? Should we get into a type of bitch-slap here in front of the whole forum?
Seriously, why even go there man?
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Quote: |
Is that clear enough of an opinion for you?
When you make sweeping accusations about an entire group of people, you are often doing so out of racial prejudice. That being, that races are separate, different, and un-equal. |
Captain Obvious, nobody is arguing against this position. I highly advise you to read what I've actually written, not what you think I've written. I am not arguing that racism exists. Once again, thanks for introducing yet another completely non-related non-issue into the discussion. |
You asked me if I believed that ONLY negative comments about a race were racism - I elaborated on it pages ago - yet some how it's a non-issue?? WTF man, you brought it up! YOU wanted it to be an issue. And as soon as I show something that doesn't confomr to YOUR ideal, it's somehow morphs into a non-issue 
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| I'll ask you this Thundaar, do you think any public figure in the West would get away with saying these comments and not catch heat for them? |
What politicians in the West can or can't get away with has little bearing on this discussion. If you would like a further example, allow me to refer you to the story of the man fired from his position because of the word "niggardly." Yeah, that's right, people assumed he was being racist when he was not. Gee, who around here is making just that same assumption?
http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm |
I've read the story before thanks.
| Quote: |
But instead, you'd like to stick in your convenient little corner.
| Quote: |
| "Koreans are rude" is just as ignorant and racist a statement as saying "Jews are cheap" or "blacks are fast". I've given more examples here, but again, you seem to dismiss them when you don't like them. |
Saying blacks are fast would, in fact, be racist, if the person saying it thought blacks were inherently (genetically) faster than whites. It would not be racist if the person saying it thought blacks had, for example, a superior work ethic which led to them training harder and therefore running faster. |
What about saying that "Blacks are dishonest" or "Blacks are violent"? All of those could be learned tendencies.
| Quote: |
Saying Jews are fast would be racist if the person saying it thought Jews were inherently (genetically) cheaper than other races.
Note: I never argued against the fact that racism exists, Captain Obvous. Let's get back to your final example. (Oh, ps. when I ignore your other examples, it's because, quite frankly, it's not worth my time to wade through all your straw-man arguments.)
Koreans are rude. Well, according to you, this is racist and ignorant. Not just racist and ignorant, but just as racist and ignorant as the other two examples. Just right there, you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have a fcuking clue what you are talking about.
I find that your threshold for what constitutes true racism to be alarmingly low. Personally, I like to reserve terms like racist, Nazi, travesty, holocaust, etc, for things that actually fit those terms. Calling English teachers who've had a bad day racists is not my cup of tea.
Let's examine, exactly, why the term "Koreans are rude" isn't racist.
A) Well, for one, if it was racist, thenit opens up a whole other can of worms wherein any Korean who makes a comment about foreigners is also a racist. Call me crazy, but I don't like to label entire countries as racist. Apparently that's ok with you though.
Just imagine how racist you find it when foreigners say "Koreans are rude" and imagine just how much ruder I find it when the logical extension of your thought process is "Koreans are all racist." Not seeing the connection? Keep looking, you'll get there. In any case, I find that to be quite racist.
B) Yet another can of worms opened up by your entirely misguided and completely irrational thought process is that if I uttered the phrase "Koreans are polite" I am also making a racist statement. Yeah, I'm making a sweeping generalization that (according to you) is judging an entire race of people and by extension, disparaging another (in this case, non-Koreans.)
C) Rudeness/politeness is a learned behavior. Most people (I would say all, but you continually fail to address this point so you are the lone exception I know of personally) are aware of this. Therefore, when commenting upon a group of people's rudeness/politeness, being aware of the aforementioned fact, this automatically precludes the intent of the statement of being racist. Not to mention that, factually, it can be argued that Koreans do not constitute a race in any case.
Now, I know you keep getting hung up on what can be construed as racism. Fair enough. What the ignorant wrongly construe as racism is clearly (as evinced by the last few pages of this thread) beyond my control. |
Ok, I'll try to address your points here and ignore your profanity in what is now turning into a less-than-civil- discussion:
A) Racist comments do not automatically equal a racist person. Often times people will misspeak or say something out of ignorance. IMO a "racist person" is someone who continues to make racist comments knowing the effect they produce. So, if we were to take the extreme example of the ENTIRE nation of Korea making a certain racist comment, I have no doubt that if confronted with the negative meaning of the comment, a vast majority would then rescind it.
B) Yeah, I'd ay that borders on racist too. While it'd probably get very few feathers ruffled, I' guessing some people would object to it. If JustAnotherDay comes to this forum and say "Koreans are smart", or "Koreans are handsome", I'd give it less than 5 minutes before a horde of poster descend on him to show him how wrong/sweeping that statement is.
C) Now this might be where are opinions on racism differ. You apparently see it as ONLY tied to genetics, while I see it as applicable to culture. For you, racism is only about what a certain race is genetically disposed to - and I understand that. But for me, I see possibilities of racism in cultural attributes to when they apply to large swaths of people.
These would be examples of what I mean.
-Jews are dishonest
-Blacks are criminally inclined
-Japanese are sexual deviants
-Chinese are dirty
-Africans are barbaric
-Mexicans are lazy
Now to you, perhaps those are all learned traits and have nothing to do with racism. By your definition, I'd understand that. But take a look at the general application of racism and see how those comments hold up. Would there not be outrage if the NYT ran an article entitled "Indians don't work"?
If we're going to continue this discussion, I ask that you perhaps leave out the profanity and name calling, and just stick the the topic at hand.
-thanks |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| First off, I find it funny that you've resorted to name-calling to "win" your argument. For someone who sits so high on their horse, why the need to resort to such a low form? Does it somehow make you feel better to try to warp my screen name to your own purposes. Should I now be calling you Thundarrpussy because that is what I think of you? Should we get into a type of bitch-slap here in front of the whole forum? |
A) I haven't resorted to name-calling to "win" this discussion. The discussion has been won. You can't support your point, you fail to use logic or reason, and you fail to understand the intricacies of the subject especially w/r/t intent vs. perceprtion. So, the reason I have "resorted" to name calling has more to do with a building frustration at your continued mis-understanding, or perhaps willfull thick-headedness. More on that in a second.
| Quote: |
| You asked me if I believed that ONLY negative comments about a race were racism - I elaborated on it pages ago - yet some how it's a non-issue?? WTF man, you brought it up! YOU wanted it to be an issue. And as soon as I show something that doesn't confomr to YOUR ideal, it's somehow morphs into a non-issue |
Very amusing, and yet again you illustrate your complete lack of understanding. There are two seperate issues here. One, the issue about what you believe (that only disparaging remarks are racist) is the pertinent, and completely idiotic, notion. The other (and completely seperate, and still a non-issue) is whether racism exists. Somehow I'm not surprised that you weren't able to discertain the not-so-subtle distinction between those two points.
Let's put this in a simpler light:
The fact that racism exists has never been a part of this discussion.
The fact that you think only disparaging (or, shall we say, negative) remarks are racist is a part of this discussion.
So, when you continue to point out the obvious, something that I have yet to deny, that racism exists, all the while ignoring the point that I've been emphasizing, yes, I'll call you Captain Obvious. I find that less insulting than saying Captain Obtuse. Take your pick, really.
Now, apparently you missed this when I wrote it earlier. I wrote, many many posts ago, this very prophetic remark:
In your interpretation, both the good and the bad would be considered racist statements, so even if you pay Koreans a compliment, you're a racist. (I mean, you can't have it both ways can you? Only disparaging remarks are racist? That's non-sensical.)
Your reply was that yes, indeed, only disparaging remarks are racist. Which, as you can see, I find non-sensical, illogical, ignorant, irrational, and a host of other adjectives I can't be bothered to list. You see, you can't have one without the other. Either both good and bad things said about Koreans are racist, or neither of them are. Logically, your argument makes no sense. None at all. |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, talk about arguing about definitions.
Here is one
| dictionary.com wrote: |
rac�ism Audio Help /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865�70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism] |
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
h |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr wrote: |
The fact that you think only disparaging (or, shall we say, negative) remarks are racist is a part of this discussion. |
Maybe you missed it, but I explained my position on this already. here, I'll show you:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=119486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
| Captain Corea wrote: |
Let me be clear (once again) for you: If you attribute wide sweeping comments to entire races, you run the risk of being labelled a racist (or at least your comments labeled thus). If your comments are negative, you run an even greater risk of it (people are more prone to perk up when they hear stuff like that and take notice). |
No where did i say "only", that came from you. If you want to try to trap me into saying that, it's not going to work. I've written my position on it, and it does not state - "only".
So, I can see that you're wanting to continue on with a litany of adjectives; non-sensical, illogical, ignorant, irrational - but I do not believe what I have said qualifies for any of them. What you are reading into it - perhaps. But look at my quote above and see how 'non-sensical' it is.
Perhaps if you read what I actually write, instead of what you think I am writing, you'll be a little less upset, and not have to resort to name calling.
Or would you lke to continue with the name calling? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mnhnhyouh wrote: |
Wow, talk about arguing about definitions.
Here is one
| dictionary.com wrote: |
rac�ism Audio Help /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865�70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism] |
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
h |
I wonder if 1. would be applicable here. Many have stated that Koreans are rude and lack manners, and that "we" (foreigners) need to teach them and call them on it. That smacks of superiority to me. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Focusing on Koreans being rude versus Canadians or Americans involves wanting a cultural medal for being perceived as more polite. That's an ego trip in my opinion. Do you really need that? In some ways, depending on how you measure politeness, Koreans are more polite than Westerners and in some ways less so. There are certain things that Koreans do that would be consider blatantly rude by our societies like calling someone fat. That remark would be considered something who has no class would make in the West. However, look at how some of our students behave back home. Korean kids are often more well-behaved and respectful than the kids in Canada or the U.S. If you've taught at a public school in North America or England you will see more closely how society has changed. I am willing to bet that people all over the world are generally not as polite as they used to be. Anyway, some want to focus so much on us versus them instead of expanding of the circle of what us includes...That's being reactionary. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| No where did i say "only", that came from you. If you want to try to trap me into saying that, it's not going to work. I've written my position on it, and it does not state - "only". |
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
Yes, I was the one who wrote the word "only." In a question. Directed to you. To which you answered in the affirmative. Did you not understand the question? It was a pretty simple question. Nobody held a gun to your head to make you answer it.
Pretty much, what you're saying now is that when you answer questions, your answers are not in response to the questions you're responding to? Is that a fair summation of what your position is?
But you know what? It doesn't really matter to me, because I have you any way I want you at this point. I've finally got some spare time where I can detail precisely exactly why, when, and how you are wrong. (As if I hadn't provided a sufficiently rational argument ad nauseum already.)
Ok, either only disparaging (let's say negative) remarks are racist or they aren't. You've backtracked from your answer to that question, so the other option is that negative and positive remarks are both racist. Which is absurd, but at least it's a step up from completely bat-shit crazy.
Let's examine why this is absurd.
Well, logically, if negative comments are racist, AND positive comments are also racist, then the statements "Koreans are rude" and "Koreans are polite" are equally racist. Yes? Follow? Too difficult to understand?
So, if you think (and you've made this clear that indeed you do) that the phrase "Koreans are rude" is racist, then you must also think that it's opposite "Koreans are polite" is also racist. Yes?
If you are consistent (with your implied admission that negative and positive remarks can both be racist) then you will, have to admit this. Following so far?
As mentioned previously, I find this position absurd. My position, as it has always been, is that the remark may be, or may not be racist, as decided by the intent of the speaker (and not by the perception of the listener.)
Btw, I've already demonstrated why the perception of the listener is not a good barometer for measuring what can be construted as racism, which is clearly in despite of your hamfisted appeal of what would happen to politicians back home who uttered "racist" remarks.
So, racism should be determined by the intent of the speaker, which is what this boils down to, unfortunately for you. (Why? Well, it's a very logical and consistent position, and it doesn't lead to the conclusion that all foreigners and all Koreans are racist, which your train of thought inevitably does lead to.)
How can we judge intent? Well, first of all, let's take a look at the dictionary definition which you so cleverly failed to understand the meaning of:
| Quote: |
| 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. |
And your totally off-the-mark response:
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| I wonder if 1. would be applicable here. Many have stated that Koreans are rude and lack manners, and that "we" (foreigners) need to teach them and call them on it. That smacks of superiority to me. |
I would agree that saying Koreans are rude and lack manners and that we need to teach them manners smacks of superiority. However, having read and understood the complete definition, I would be quite hesitant (unlike some) to labe such remarks as racist. Let's examine the salient part of the definition which you seem inherently unable to understand.
| Quote: |
| 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. |
So, once again, I am right. For the speaker to be in fact making a racist (rather than cultural) remark, he must first believe that [Korean] rudeness comes from a difference inherent in their race.
You have yet to support that position. Basically, you've gotten your feathers in a ruffle over the statement, labled it as racist (hint: it may be, it may not be, but from the evidence you've posted here, I certainly wouldn't come to the conclusion that anyone who uttered it meant it in a racist way) and gone on for pages upon pages about why you think it is racist (because that's the way you want to hear it.)
And why is this? Personally, I generally do not like thinking the worst of my fellow human beings, which is why I'm generally hesitant to bring out the "R" word in response to someone saying something like "Koreans are rude." (You must admit it is entirely possible, and even likely, the speaker is only talking about culture, yes?)
And, if there is any doubt, well, perhaps you've heard the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" Unless someone has deomstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they think Koreans as a race are somehow genetically ruder than other races, then I would feel pretty uncomfortable sitting as judge and jury on them. Apparently you are quite comfortable judging your fellow foreigners as racist, without any proof or compelling reason to do so, except that you want to.)
Now, getting back to the perception part of the argument. Certainly, there is *some* merit to preventing people from hearing things that they perceive to be offensive. However, I find that the following quote sums it up best:
| Quote: |
| I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.-Voltaire |
Edit: By the way, you lose.
Second edit for further pwnage:
| Quote: |
| So, I have to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" what someone is saying is racist, yet you let these absurd generalizations slide?? |
I just re-read that one. Once again, I never argued that racism didn't exist, which this comment seems to be implying. And secondly, yeah, the burden of proof is on you to prove that someone had a racist intent in mind when they say something that sounds racist. The alternative, which you seem to be favoring, seems to be that if you label someone a racist, then they're a racist, no proof required. Well, if that's the case, even though I have no proof, I'm calling you a racist. I'm sure if I backtracked through your posts you'll have said something good or bad about Koreans. Racist. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| No where did i say "only", that came from you. If you want to try to trap me into saying that, it's not going to work. I've written my position on it, and it does not state - "only". |
| Thunndarr wrote: |
| Only disparaging remarks are racist? |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| When they are voiced as condescending - yes. |
Yes, I was the one who wrote the word "only." In a question. Directed to you. To which you answered in the affirmative. Did you not understand the question? It was a pretty simple question. Nobody held a gun to your head to make you answer it. |
Then I'll take that as my mistake. My answer was not in the affirmative in regards to the "only" part of the question, but rather the latter part. That is why I have clarified my position a number of times since then. You seem to want to come back to this, even after I've clarified my position... I find that funny why you would do that. Why ot just use my more exacting explanation for a basis of my thoughts instead of a word in a question that you used and that I answered in the affirmative? Would it not simply be clearer to understand my thoughts by reading what I wrote?
| Quote: |
Ok, either only disparaging (let's say negative) remarks are racist or they aren't. You've backtracked from your answer to that question, so the other option is that negative and positive remarks are both racist. Which is absurd, but at least it's a step up from completely bat-shit crazy.
Let's examine why this is absurd.
Well, logically, if negative comments are racist, AND positive comments are also racist, then the statements "Koreans are rude" and "Koreans are polite" are equally racist. Yes? Follow? Too difficult to understand? |
Not at all,that's how I feel.
| Quote: |
| So, if you think (and you've made this clear that indeed you do) that the phrase "Koreans are rude" is racist, then you must also think that it's opposite "Koreans are polite" is also racist. Yes? |
Yes.
| Quote: |
| As mentioned previously, I find this position absurd. My position, as it has always been, is that the remark may be, or may not be racist, as decided by the intent of the speaker (and not by the perception of the listener.) |
Now this is where we part ways. I see racism as being both implied and received. Just like Sexual Harassment, the feelings of the "target" must be taken into account.
I've seen far too many "old men in Canada" try to get away with "Blacks are lazy. I don't mean nuttin' by it, but I just think that they aren't good workers". Now, maybe he's not feeling a genetic superiority to blacks. Maybe he's not feeling that he is being racist. But if he said those tings to a "black person" and they took offense, then yeah, there'd be a good chance it'd be categorized as racism.
| Quote: |
| Btw, I've already demonstrated why the perception of the listener is not a good barometer for measuring what can be construted as racism, which is clearly in despite of your hamfisted appeal of what would happen to politicians back home who uttered "racist" remarks. |
For you to discount the listener/victim speaks volumes for your position. I wonder if you'd apply that to sexual harassment as well?
The rest of this is your nicely worded ramble going on the assumption that racism has nothing to do with the recipient. Have you never heard of Unconcious Racism? By your definition, it doesn't exist. But my definition leaves room for it.
| Quote: |
So, racism should be determined by the intent of the speaker, which is what this boils down to, unfortunately for you. (Why? Well, it's a very logical and consistent position, and it doesn't lead to the conclusion that all foreigners and all Koreans are racist, which your train of thought inevitably does lead to.)
How can we judge intent? Well, first of all, let's take a look at the dictionary definition which you so cleverly failed to understand the meaning of:
| Quote: |
| 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. |
And your totally off-the-mark response:
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| I wonder if 1. would be applicable here. Many have stated that Koreans are rude and lack manners, and that "we" (foreigners) need to teach them and call them on it. That smacks of superiority to me. |
I would agree that saying Koreans are rude and lack manners and that we need to teach them manners smacks of superiority. However, having read and understood the complete definition, I would be quite hesitant (unlike some) to labe such remarks as racist. Let's examine the salient part of the definition which you seem inherently unable to understand.
| Quote: |
| 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. |
So, once again, I am right. For the speaker to be in fact making a racist (rather than cultural) remark, he must first believe that [Korean] rudeness comes from a difference inherent in their race.
You have yet to support that position. Basically, you've gotten your feathers in a ruffle over the statement, labled it as racist (hint: it may be, it may not be, but from the evidence you've posted here, I certainly wouldn't come to the conclusion that anyone who uttered it meant it in a racist way) and gone on for pages upon pages about why you think it is racist (because that's the way you want to hear it.)
And why is this? Personally, I generally do not like thinking the worst of my fellow human beings, which is why I'm generally hesitant to bring out the "R" word in response to someone saying something like "Koreans are rude." (You must admit it is entirely possible, and even likely, the speaker is only talking about culture, yes?)
And, if there is any doubt, well, perhaps you've heard the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" Unless someone has deomstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they think Koreans as a race are somehow genetically ruder than other races, then I would feel pretty uncomfortable sitting as judge and jury on them. Apparently you are quite comfortable judging your fellow foreigners as racist, without any proof or compelling reason to do so, except that you want to.)
Now, getting back to the perception part of the argument. Certainly, there is *some* merit to preventing people from hearing things that they perceive to be offensive. However, I find that the following quote sums it up best:
| Quote: |
| I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.-Voltaire |
Edit: By the way, you lose.
Second edit for further pwnage:
| Quote: |
| So, I have to "prove beyond a shadow of a doubt" what someone is saying is racist, yet you let these absurd generalizations slide?? |
I just re-read that one. Once again, I never argued that racism didn't exist, which this comment seems to be implying. And secondly, yeah, the burden of proof is on you to prove that someone had a racist intent in mind when they say something that sounds racist. The alternative, which you seem to be favoring, seems to be that if you label someone a racist, then they're a racist, no proof required. Well, if that's the case, even though I have no proof, I'm calling you a racist. I'm sure if I backtracked through your posts you'll have said something good or bad about Koreans. Racist. |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| blah blah blah |
Look, you're beaten. You've got no case. You can't even address the points I've brought up. Basically, your whole argument rests on "You're a racist because I said so." Sorry, not good enough.
By the way, I find it interesting how the bolded part:
| Quote: |
| Btw, I've already demonstrated why the perception of the listener is not a good barometer for measuring what can be construted as racism, which is clearly in despite of your hamfisted appeal of what would happen to politicians back home who uttered "racist" remarks. |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
For you to discount the listener/victim speaks volumes for your position. I wonder if you'd apply that to sexual harassment as well?
The rest of this is your nicely worded ramble going on the assumption that racism has nothing to do with the recipient. Have you never heard of Unconcious Racism? By your definition, it doesn't exist. But my definition leaves room for it. |
Two parts here, Captain Jackass.
A: Don't ever set up such a god damned obvious straw-man again. What has my position on what constitutes racism got to do with sexual harrassment? The answer? Nothing.
B: Don't ever mis-represent my clearly stated opinions again. How does "not a good barometer for measuring racism" become "racism has nothing to do with the recipient." Have you ever heard of reading comprehension?
Once again, stop replying to things you think I've written, and reply to what I've actually written.
Or better yet, just admit you haven't got a clue where to go from here and just keep making up straw-men and hope I'll get side-tracked. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Wow, name calling again. You've definately hit a new low. I thought you had gotten over that bit of immaturity, but I'm guessing you still need to vent. So, are you next wanting to meet by the bike racks after school? If so, I suppose you could always shoot me a PM and we could set that up. You could call me name and hoot and hollar all you want then.
I notice how in your quote above you left out some of what you actually wrote. Here, let me help you with that:
| Quote: |
My position, as it has always been, is that the remark may be, or may not be racist, as decided by the intent of the speaker (and not by the perception of the listener.)
Btw, I've already demonstrated why the perception of the listener is not a good barometer for measuring what can be construted as racism, which is clearly in despite of your hamfisted appeal of what would happen to politicians back home who uttered "racist" remarks.
So, racism should be determined by the intent of the speaker, which is what this boils down to, unfortunately for you. (Why? Well, it's a very logical and consistent position, and it doesn't lead to the conclusion that all foreigners and all Koreans are racist, which your train of thought inevitably does lead to.)
How can we judge intent? Well, first of all, let's take a look at the dictionary definition which you so cleverly failed to understand the meaning of:
Quote:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. |
Now, you may want to claim that you never said that racism has nothing to do with the recipient, but it's pretty clear by the quotes above that you've sided with it being "decided by the intent of the speaker" and not the listener.
So, Thundarrpussy (now that we're on such a casual basis), do you now recind that comment and want to include the recipient as part of the equasion in racism?
It's funny though, because I'm guessing you're going to ramble on again about "winning" or something and how you've "beaten me". instead of actually responding to me.
I think the difference is, I'm ot trying to "win", I'm trying to discuss and understand (different points of view while sharing mind). That's why I've continuously tried to understand where our definitions vary and to see where they are the same. You on the other hand have taken this on as your pet-project to "beat me" and call me names.
Do you think maybe you're here for the wrong reasons mate? |
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