|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: Texas polygamist hearing turns into farce |
 |
|
So, let's see...it's been two weeks now, the person who allegedly called in the original complaint is nowhere to be found, her name is not known, the parents claim she does not even exist, and they have had 416 children forcibly removed from them for what seems like a bogus allegation to begin with! The only justification being cited now is that some girls there got pregnant under 18 years old. If that holds up, we may have the state barging in on families all across the country, as it is not an uncommon occurrence.
If that is not intrusive enough for you, the state now wants to do DNA tests of all members in its wild goose chase for evidence!
Why does Waco keep coming into my mind now? After Janet Reno and her minions blew up the Branch Davidian compound there, killing all 76 residents including 21 children, Timothy McVeigh cited this as a motivation in his bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building.
They don't want that to happen again...do they?
Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect
| Quote: |
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) � After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.
The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.
Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.
Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.
The court hearing, which continues Friday morning, disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or queued up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.
"I've tried to impose some structure to this free-for-all," said Texas District Judge Barbara Walther.
The case � one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history � presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a historic courtroom and an auditorium two blocks away that was patched into the proceedings by a grainy video feed.
The state wants to keep the children in its custody, and likely move them to foster homes while officials continue investigating abuse allegations. The state must provide evidence the children were physically or sexually abused, or are in imminent danger of abuse.
In 11 hours on Thursday, only three witnesses testified, including Voss.
As lawyers shouted, dozens of mothers sat quietly in their long cotton dresses and braided upswept hair. They were sworn in as possible witnesses at the hearing's outset, but it was not clear when they might testify. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I am not really familiar with this, but this story says some had children when they were as young as 13. I didn't really follow this story, but Texas does have its fill of religious zealots, unfortunately. I saw plenty of that. Has anyone been following this story? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't been following it either.
However, I do object to 50 year old men being married to 13 year old girls. Call me an old fogey. Something tells me there is something fishy going on here.
It's easy to say you believe in religious freedom. The problem comes when you discuss real situations, not abstract situations. As far as I can see, real kids are being forced into real 'marriages' years before the girls are mature enough to decide for themselves. The state is correct to intervene in this case.
Branch Davidian has nothing to do with this case. (But if it did, the state had the responsibility to intervene in that case also.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This whole church is a pedo's dream come true.
Think about it; an absolute patriarchy, a seemingly endless supply of targets, local law enforcement's tacit approval, and almost total isolation from mainstream society.
Crap like this is why the IRS should consider removing the church tax exemption. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I agree with Agent and Ya-ta, the state was right to step in. They may have an uphill battle trying to prove who the father of the children are unless there were some kind of documents like birth records and marriage certificates. I'm not sure if they would keep documents like that given the fact that authorities have been trying to get better about prosecuting more cases like this in the last few years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| agentX wrote: |
This whole church is a pedo's dream come true.
Think about it; an absolute patriarchy, a seemingly endless supply of targets, local law enforcement's tacit approval, and almost total isolation from mainstream society. |
Wait, are you talking about Catholics or Mormons?
| Ya-ta boy wrote: |
| Branch Davidian has nothing to do with this case. (But if it did, the state had the responsibility to intervene in that case also.) |
Both cases have the state intervening with overwhelming force into a private home situation without real justification.
Here is an update. There are more indications now that the call which initiated the raid was phony:
Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody
SAN ANGELO, Texas - The more than 400 children taken from a ranch run by a polygamous sect will stay in state custody and be subject to genetic testing to sort out family relationships that have confounded welfare authorities, a judge ruled Friday.
State District Judge Barbara Walther heard 21 hours of testimony over two days before ruling that the children would be kept in custody while the state continues to investigate allegations of abuse stemming from the teachings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
"This is but the beginning," Walther said.
Individual hearings will be set for the children over the next several weeks, and the judge will determine whether they are moved into permanent foster care or can be returned to their parents. All hearings must be held by June 5.
Walther also ordered that all 416 children and parents be given genetic tests. Child welfare officials say they've had difficulty determining how the children and adults are related because of evasive or changing answers.
A mobile genetic lab will take samples Monday at the main shelter where children are being kept; parents will be able to submit samples Tuesday in Eldorado, closer to the ranch.
The custody case is one of the largest and most convoluted in U.S. history. The ruling capped two days of marathon testimony that sometimes descended into chaos as hundreds of lawyers for the children and parents competed to defend their clients in two large rooms linked by a video feed.
Attorneys popped up with objections in a courtroom and nearby auditorium, then queued up down the aisle to cross-examine witnesses in a mass hearing that frustrated attorneys and stretched the small-town court system.
The April 3 raid on the Yearning For Zion Ranch was prompted by a call made to a family violence shelter, purportedly by a 16-year-old girl who said her 50-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has never been identified.
The state of Texas argued it should be allowed to keep the children because the sect's teaching encourages girls younger than 18 to enter spiritual marriages with older men and produce as many children as possible. Its attorneys argued that the culture put all the girls at risk and potentially turned the boys into future predators.
A witness for the parents who was presented by defense lawyers as an expert on the FLDS disputed that the girls have no say in who they marry.
"I believe the girls are given a real choice," said W. John Walsh. "Girls have successfully said, 'No, this is not a good match for me,' and they remained in good standing."
But Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist who has studied children in cults, testified that the girls will not refuse marriages because they are indoctrinated to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation.
The renegade Mormon sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian," he said.
Perry acknowledged that many adults at the ranch are loving parents and that the boys seemed emotionally healthy. When asked whether the belief system really endangered the older boys or young children, Perry said, "I have lost sleep over that question."
He also conceded that the children, taught from birth to believe that contact with the outside world will lead to eternal damnation, would suffer if placed in traditional foster care.
"If these children are kept in the custody of the state, there would have to be exceptional and innovative programmatic elements for these children and their families," he said. "The traditional foster care system would be destructive for these children."
Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said the department believes the children will now be safe.
...
Four women testified Friday, and all said they were free to make their own choices. They also said they would do whatever it took to get their children returned to them.
"We're a peaceful people," Lucille Nielson said. Life on their 1,700-acre gated ranch "is very peaceful. You can feel the peace when you are there. Very loving. We raise our children in a loving environment."
But the women also acknowledged that girls get married at ages younger than the state allows.
...
"We are going to comply with the orders of the court; we're going to cooperate with CPS and their requirements and do everything within our power to turn the situation around," he said.
Texas Rangers also are investigating a Colorado woman as a "person of interest" related to calls made to a family crisis center. Police arrested Rozita Swinton, 33, on Wednesday in Colorado Springs on a misdemeanor charge of false reporting to authorities for a call she made in late February.
Authorities did not say whether a call by Swinton might be the one that triggered the raid.
Am I the only one who finds it abhorrent that the state would interject inself into a private home and then, without demonstrating legitimate complaint, subject everyone to DNA tests? If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd say the state manufactured the initial complaint in order to justify the massive show of state power and destruction of this home. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| I agree with Agent and Ya-ta, the state was right to step in. |
On what grounds? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am not sure what to think about this, but sects are a danger to the state.
How is the state supposed to investigate this, anyway?
I am not sure about forcing people to give DNA evidence.
On what legal basis can you force someone to take a DNA test? Maybe there is such a thing. Don't we make people take DNA tests? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I am not sure what to think about this, but sects are a danger to the state. |
Distinguish a sect from a religion. Even if you could, are they by definition a danger to the state, and hence it is justified for the state to intervene on the mere basis of their existence, or should there first be some probable cause as the Constitution requires?
| Adventurer wrote: |
| How is the state supposed to investigate this, anyway? |
Asking the complainant to come in for an interview, or asking the alleged abuser to come in for questioning might have been better first steps. Many people lived there. Why not try to get corroboration from just ONE other source?
I don't know that I know the answer to your question. I'll go out on a limb here and say that sending in tanks and a military-style assault on the compound are probably not the best ways.
| Adventurer wrote: |
I am not sure about forcing people to give DNA evidence.
On what legal basis can you force someone to take a DNA test? Maybe there is such a thing. Don't we make people take DNA tests? |
To make citizens submit to DNA testing violates the Fourth Amendment, so in general, to force it upon them is wrong. It also violates the Fifth Amendment if it is done to look for incriminating evidence in a crime suspect.
Maybe someone else can answer your question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Absolutely outrageous. DNA tests are going forward, all this is occurring, and none of these people has been accused of a crime!
For all of you who are OK with this, I will make an anonymous, toll-free hotline call to claim child abuse in your home, and you are OK with a SWAT team coming in and destroying your home like this, right?
Moms and young children from Texas ranch to be parted
SAN ANGELO, Texas - Adult mothers who have been allowed to stay with their young children since they were taken from a polygamous sect will be separated from them after DNA sampling is completed next week, a child welfare official said Saturday.
State District Judge Barbara Walther late Friday ordered that parents and children of the Yearning For Zion Ranch submit DNA samples to help sort out family relationships that have confounded authorities since 416 children were taken into state custody two weeks ago.
...
Once sampling is complete, the agency will begin moving the children from the San Angelo coliseum and fairgrounds to other sites.
Child welfare officials allowed adult mothers with children ages 4 and younger to stay together when the state took custody of the rest of the children from the ranch. Now, only mothers younger than 18 will be allowed to remain with their children once the sampling is complete. The welfare agency will also try to keep siblings together, he said.
"We're going to make these transitions as easy as possible," Azar said. "We want to keep them together as much as possible so they don't feel they're completely isolated from their culture or the people they know."
...
Although the many unique family ties found in the sect will probably add a level of difficulty for DNA analysts in determining parentage, Beaudet said, the added complexity is still "not a significant concern."
...
More than 400 children will be tested, but officials have not said how many adults will be tested. Such a considerable amount of DNA testing is not new but is usually associated with trying to identify victims of mass violence or natural disasters.
Walther on Friday continued an emergency order giving the state custody of the children after a sometimes chaotic two-day hearing in which the state argued that the teachings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints jeopardized children.
The child welfare agency has said that the sect encourages adolescent girls to marry older men and have children, and that boys are groomed to become future perpetrators. Sect members deny the allegations.
Individual hearings will be set for the children over the next several weeks, and the judge will determine whether they are moved into permanent foster care or can be returned to their parents. All of the hearings must be held by June 5.
The custody case is one of the nation's largest and most complicated. The ruling Friday capped two days of testimony that sometimes became disorderly as hundreds of lawyers for children and parents competed to defend their clients in two rooms linked by a video feed.
The April 3 raid on the Yearning For Zion Ranch was prompted by a call made to a family violence shelter, purportedly by a 16-year-old girl who said her 50-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has never been identified. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't really understand bcasper's outrage here. It could be seen as heavy handedness (by police? In Texas?), but the Fundamental Latter Day Saints are well known, and characterised as being scofflaws. That, and there have been more than one example of child abuse, underaged forced marriage and even incest in FLDS communes.
It's a fair point that the initial accusation hasn't been confirmed, but still it's not like authorities acted on that alone.
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1675126,00.html
http://helpthechildbrides.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now this case is making more and more sense.
Ever wonder why there weren't that many boys on the YFZ ranch?
http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/592943.html
| Quote: |
The FLDS has traditionally kept the number of boys in their polygamist communities low. That way the male leaders can have their pick of young "plural wives," without the worry of younger competition, said Brenda Jensen, a former "polygamy kid" who now works as a volunteer for The Hope Organization. The nonprofit group in St. George, Utah, helps abuse victims from polygamist relationships.
FLDS leaders, under the direction of Jeffs, can be ruthless in the ways they kick boys out of their communities in Arizona and Utah, Jensen said, stressing that she was expressing her own feelings as a child of polygamists, and not the views of The Hope Organization.
Boys as young as 13 have been torn from their families and left on the unfamiliar streets of Salt Lake City and Las Vegas for committing such infractions as talking to a girl, or rolling up their sleeves -- a no-no for showing skin in public, Jensen said.
Jensen said the boys in the FLDS, after graduating from home school, win favors from "the priesthood" by going on two-year "work missions" away from their families. They work for free for the church but are still vulnerable to expulsion if they slip up.
With the boys gone, the girls, fresh from graduating, are married off to "these old grizzly men," Jensen said.
"Usually, your graduation dress becomes your wedding dress," she added. "Those were the lucky ones. Some would just get tapped on the shoulder, pulled into a room and come out married." |
Hopefully this case will have a domino effect on the whole FDLS community and shut the whole thing down. I had hoped the Warren Jeffs conviction would have been the end of it, but apparently not.
I'd like to see in what part of the Book of Mormon(or whatever the FDLS uses) does it authorize dumping boys on the highway so older men can have sex with younger girls. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| happeningthang wrote: |
| I don't really understand bcasper's outrage here. |
Good. So then you won't be outraged when I anonymously call in a child abuse complaint against your household, and a SWAT team arrives to separate you from your kids, and now you must prove you are not an abuser. I can understand your position: violation of a few rights is acceptable when it is for the good of the children, right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| I don't really understand bcasper's outrage here. |
Good. So then you won't be outraged when I anonymously call in a child abuse complaint against your household, and a SWAT team arrives to separate you from your kids, and now you must prove you are not an abuser. I can understand your position: violation of a few rights is acceptable when it is for the good of the children, right? |
Don't be disingenious.
If events have unfolded as you describe them then there'd be cause for upset.
BUT....
If there's an anonymous phone tip calling in a child abuse complaint, against a group of people who are ideologically related with groups of known abusers, who are known scofflaws who refuse any co-operation with authorities, operate in secrecy and seclusion, and are known to have guns - then authorities have only two choices. They can do nothing, allowing the FLDS Church to stymie them, or do something, which by the unfortunate nature of the suspects would require a large scale police action.
Where's the violation of rights? They're getting due process in the course of having the charges investigated.
I'm saving my sympathy for people, who don't want to run their own patriarchal fiefdoms Taliban style. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| When the health and safety of children is put at risk by the adults who are responsible for them, then the state has no choice but to get involved. Freedom of religion does not extend as far as having sex with 13-year olds. No freedom is absolute. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
