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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| pugwall wrote: |
| Even the UN said it wasn't fair to put USa and China in the same boat as China is a developing country trying to take people out of poverty. |
Wow, I know you were trying to convey a valid point about China having in different circumstances than the US. But man, it comes out like a CCP talking point.
Chinese individuals have a right to clean air, too. And the CCP has chosen to invest in coal plants.
I know what you were trying to say, and what you were responding to, but pollution causes a host of problems. Mostly to people who have to live in it. |
Look its not my line, its from the UN. You can read the article. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| China and India often bring up the point that a great deal of companies from Europe, the US and elsewhere will shift manufacturing overseas to countries like China, and then the emissions count as coming from there. Then the western companies get to pretend that they're cleaner than clean because only the head offices are located there and those don't pollute. I don't know if there are alternate stats that take that into account. |
Good point, Mith. That's something that is so often overlooked. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: This Just In: The U.S. is no longer #1! |
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| wannago wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
It seems as though China took over the dubious title of world's biggest polluter a year or two ago. With the US economy sagging and the Chinese economy booming, will the environmentalists start putting pressure on the Chinese to clean up?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7347638.stm |
I see, China has a population of well over about 1.3 billion people against the US's population of about 300 million and you think it's wrong that the Chinese should somehow pollute more than the USA? |
uh, wannago? You never really addressed this point. Instead you made up a straw man that people were calling the US evil when nobody was. |
OK, Einstein....where did I ever say "it's wrong that the Chinese should somehow pollute more than the USA?" CLUE: I didn't. I just asked if China would now be pressured to reduce emissions. I guess that touched a nerve with the "China can do no wrong" crowd...you included, evidently. No one called the US "evil" but when China becomes the world's largest polluter, they are given a pass and more excuses as to why this should be acceptable from them. Lame, all of them. Are you rooting for them in that little scuffle in Tibet, too? |
The fact that that their population is three times larger is not an 'excuse' its a fact. Every country should try to pollute less, of course. But do you think its fair that China should be asked to reign in their pollution more than the US is, when the US is still producing three times as much pollution per capita as the Chinese? You think a person should have a right to pollute more than another person because of the country they happen to be born in? Pressure should be applied to both countries but because of the population difference the US is still the greater culprit. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: This Just In: The U.S. is no longer #1! |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
It seems as though China took over the dubious title of world's biggest polluter a year or two ago. With the US economy sagging and the Chinese economy booming, will the environmentalists start putting pressure on the Chinese to clean up?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7347638.stm |
I see, China has a population of well over about 1.3 billion people against the US's population of about 300 million and you think it's wrong that the Chinese should somehow pollute more than the USA? |
uh, wannago? You never really addressed this point. Instead you made up a straw man that people were calling the US evil when nobody was. |
OK, Einstein....where did I ever say "it's wrong that the Chinese should somehow pollute more than the USA?" CLUE: I didn't. I just asked if China would now be pressured to reduce emissions. I guess that touched a nerve with the "China can do no wrong" crowd...you included, evidently. No one called the US "evil" but when China becomes the world's largest polluter, they are given a pass and more excuses as to why this should be acceptable from them. Lame, all of them. Are you rooting for them in that little scuffle in Tibet, too? |
The fact that that their population is three times larger is not an 'excuse' its a fact. Every country should try to pollute less, of course. But do you think its fair that China should be asked to reign in their pollution more than the US is, when the US is still producing three times as much pollution per capita as the Chinese? You think a person should have a right to pollute more than another person because of the country they happen to be born in? Pressure should be applied to both countries but because of the population difference the US is still the greater culprit. |
The article says US uses 5 to 6 times more per capita. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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China can also refuse to let these companies do business in their country, but they don't.
*beep* China. They can kiss my ass.
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| China and India often bring up the point that a great deal of companies from Europe, the US and elsewhere will shift manufacturing overseas to countries like China, and then the emissions count as coming from there. Then the western companies get to pretend that they're cleaner than clean because only the head offices are located there and those don't pollute. I don't know if there are alternate stats that take that into account. |
Good point, Mith. That's something that is so often overlooked. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
China can also refuse to let these companies do business in their country, but they don't.
*beep* China. They can kiss my ass. |
My sentiments exactly. The US is bad because it produces things in China, but China is not wrong for allowing it?
I really can't believe how many people are so quick to make the US the culprit in all things, but give countries like China a pass on everything. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
China can also refuse to let these companies do business in their country, but they don't.
*beep* China. They can kiss my ass. |
My sentiments exactly. The US is bad because it produces things in China, but China is not wrong for allowing it?
I really can't believe how many people are so quick to make the US the culprit in all things, but give countries like China a pass on everything. |
Wow you really have your finger on the pulse. China is really getting an easy time over things right now. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if you're being sarcastic of not. China's getting hammered by the media these days, but if the shoe were on USA's foot, the whole Olympics would have been boycotted and cancelled by now.
| pugwall wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
China can also refuse to let these companies do business in their country, but they don't.
*beep* China. They can kiss my ass. |
My sentiments exactly. The US is bad because it produces things in China, but China is not wrong for allowing it?
I really can't believe how many people are so quick to make the US the culprit in all things, but give countries like China a pass on everything. |
Wow you really have your finger on the pulse. China is really getting an easy time over things right now. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
I don't know if you're being sarcastic of not. China's getting hammered by the media these days, but if the shoe were on USA's foot, the whole Olympics would have been boycotted and cancelled by now.
| pugwall wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
China can also refuse to let these companies do business in their country, but they don't.
*beep* China. They can kiss my ass. |
My sentiments exactly. The US is bad because it produces things in China, but China is not wrong for allowing it?
I really can't believe how many people are so quick to make the US the culprit in all things, but give countries like China a pass on everything. |
Wow you really have your finger on the pulse. China is really getting an easy time over things right now. |
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China-bashing: back in style
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| A new poll by Harris, released Wednesday by the Financial Times, indicates that China has overtaken the U.S. as the biggest threat to global stability in the eyes of Europeans. |
If by getting an easy time, you mean facing global condemnation, then yes. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Wannago is right to allude to the subtle U.S.-centrism that is at play here but wrong to celebrate this as a Chinese fault. And, also, Mithridates excludes Canada from his list.
In any case, transnational corporations, are exactly that: transnational. Their investors range from the entire planet, at least mostly from the industrialized world. But they also include elites from throughout the Third World. They do business in favorable climates re: labor and other conditions, such as China, India, etc.
Blaming the nation-state from where some parts of these transnationals originate, and defending the nation-states that now host them as victims of this or that bashing will not help us come to terms with the problem, if one even truly exists. Local interests and politicians, for one, tend to fall all over themselves to cooperate in creating such favorable climates.
For its part, were the Chinese govt interested in such problems and serious about regulating them, it would do so. And it is not China-bashing to point this out -- arrogant Europeans and their constant need to identify and scathingly critique non-European villains in world affairs for nothing more than failing to live up to European standards notwithstanding (they have been doing this for over five-hundred years now, and we should not be surprised by it).
Finally, it is false to scapegoat modern capitalism for issues some perceive as environmental problems in today's world. Premodern and precapitalist peoples and cultures -- for example, Easter Island and Mughal India -- have long contributed to this alleged problem, and for reasons and motives that have nothing at all to do with Marx's bourgeois revolution.
People ought to get a grip. Human beings change. Our planet changes, too. It has always been so. Why some remain so committed to always characterizing this in "the-sky-is-falling!" rhetoric, and then, on top of that, search for one or another group of human beings to scapegoat for it, I will never comprehend. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I was being sarcastic. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gopher"]
For its part, were the Chinese govt interested in such problems and serious about regulating them, it would do so. And it is not China-bashing to point this out -- arrogant Europeans and their constant need to identify and scathingly critique non-European villains in world affairs for nothing more than failing to live up to European standards notwithstanding (they have been doing this for over five-hundred years now, and we should not be surprised by it).
quote]
The Chinese government is doing things though, recently they banned plastic bags. To say that the government is doing nothing is not true. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not disagree. China is not doing nothing. Certainly not acting in bad-faith on such issues as those we are discussing here, at least not any more than anyone else in world affairs. Just to be clear, I find China bashing just as stupid and unimaginative as antiAmericanism and U.S.-centrism. |
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