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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Ah yes, it's just human nature, everyone's hands are equally dirty and no one can criticize anyone else. I believe that is Step Three in the... |
No, not really. Just Step One in the Getting a Grip on Reality Before You Launch Into Idealistic Tirades handbook. Ever read it?
And I never said anything about not criticizing. But with people like you there is either "love it or leave it" or "denounce it as a plague upon the Earth" -- with no stops in between. Grow up.
Finally, I note, with pleasure, in fact, that a thread populated by sanctimonious Republican bashers on "the race card" strategy are falling all over themselves in silence to ignore the Clinton story I reminded them about. Especially rich coming from people who denounce stereotyping and who also love to allege "hypocrisy" at every turn, too.
P.S. You are here to hurl self-righteousness at the other side, Stillnotking. That explains how you originally titled this thread. You pat yourself on your back each time you spit invective. But I, and many other Republicans, will still vote according to our own politics and conscience. You cannot scream at us and persuade us to change our minds. You can only scream at us and reconfirm that we are right to distance ourselves from you and the lack of reason and indeed the wild-eyed hysteria you represent. Congratulations. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Ah yes, it's just human nature, everyone's hands are equally dirty and no one can criticize anyone else. I believe that is Step Three in the... |
No, not really. Just Step One in the Getting a Grip on Reality Before You Launch Into Idealistic Tirades handbook. Ever read it? |
Is that the one that cautions against accusing your domestic political opponents of wanting to nuke their own country? Yeah, I think I read that one. You?
One side of this debate is sticking to demonstrable facts and assertions. The other is trying to muddy the waters with "Look Over There" handwaving. Don't think for an instant that anyone reading it can't tell which is which.
| Quote: |
| Finally, I note, with pleasure, in fact, that a thread populated by sanctimonious Republican bashers on "the race card" strategy are falling all over themselves in silence to ignore the Clinton story I reminded them about. Especially rich coming from people who love to allege "hypocrisy," too. |
What was the point of that story again? Maybe you can spell it out for me, because I don't see that it reveals any racism on the part of Hillary Clinton. I didn't comment on it because I didn't see the relevance.
If you're trying to suggest that Hillary is racist with respect to white people, you might want to think about it a little more. She is white and she married a white man.
On your little "P.S.", you can cut the Karnak crap. I started this thread because I think there is a strong argument to be made that the national leadership of the Republican party is racist, and I made that argument. If you disagree, you disagree, but you don't know what my motives are, and they aren't germane. I wonder if you're aware of the irony of employing that kind of playground crap while telling other people to grow up.
Last edited by stillnotking on Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| What was the point of that story again? Maybe you can spell it out for me...[?] |
No, I cannot. You would never be able to see it. You see, there is another handbook, Stillnotking: it is called the You Can Lead a Burro to Water But You Cannot Force It to Drink handbook.
I suggest you, and Ya-ta Boy, for that matter, return to your diatribe against Republicans and their racism as opposed to Democrats and their virtue. I should check out here...
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:10 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Politicians will exploit whatever opportunities present themselves, Ya-ta Boy. I am sorry if this surprises you. But that is one of the many ways politics functions. Whether you and I morally approve or not, politics will continue to function as it does. It has probably been so since the Neolithic, if not earlier, in human history. And, no, I am not alleging that "that makes it OK." I am simply stating that that is the way it is. |
Ah yes, it's just human nature, everyone's hands are equally dirty and no one can criticize anyone else. I believe that is Step Three in the Partisan Defense Handbook, to be used only when Step One (disputes over fact) and Step Two (disputes over intent) have been conclusively defeated.
If it's established that yes, your party leadership says and does racist things; and yes, they say and do those things because they are racists; then rather than leaving the party, or demanding reform, you can simply start in with the tu quoque and "Look Over There! A Democrat Did Something Bad!"
Sad, really. But so predictable. |
ROFL! You think you've won on Step One and Step Two?
All you've possibly shown is that one, perhaps two Senators, from KY mind you, are racist. And you've also reminded us of the Southern strategy. Well, racists have to vote somewhere, and they're dying off fast.
There's the tenuous connection between immigration and racism, but there are some genuine arguments on why the borders should be secured and that America has finite resources jeoperdized by illegal immigration (I don't agree with the last one).
Meanwhile, Wannago made a weak attempt to show how Affirmative Action was racist. While his post is not bad in terms of showing the questionability of affirmative action, somehow he overplayed his hand and bungled a legitimate criticism into a conservative-PC accusation of racism.
And Gopher, why are you going on the attack here? You're battling a phantom and a groundless accusation. And with what? Bringing up leftist academia? 뭐야?
I love the idea of vicarious liability asserted by the OP here. A jackass KY Senator makes a racist insinuation, (and yes it was an insinuation, its not like he dropped the N-bomb) and all of a sudden the GOP is racist. As if the single misstatement of one can be used to characterize the over-arching goal of a political party which garners some allegiance from roughly half of the country.
I dub this thread with the following:
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| ...why are you going on the attack here? You're battling a phantom and a groundless accusation. And with what? Bringing up leftist academia? 뭐야? |
Yes, I know that. Trying to point out the hypocrisy of the charge and the pervasiveness, from decades-old market segmentation to decades-old partisan politics to decades-old leftist academics obsessing on and thus playing their own role in reifying race, of "the race card" in American society. And I agree that singling out two Republican Senators and then painting the entire Republican Party by them is simply dumb, as you point out. But why are others so quick to jump on Stillnotking's sanctimonious bandwagon?
By the way, what do those characters mean, vato? |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I love the idea of vicarious liability asserted by the OP here. A jackass KY Senator makes a racist insinuation, (and yes it was an insinuation, its not like he dropped the N-bomb) and all of a sudden the GOP is racist. As if the single misstatement of one can be used to characterize the over-arching goal of a political party which garners some allegiance from roughly half of the country. |
Three things. One, this was not an isolated incident. I quoted several other Republican elected officials and their paid staffers making racist remarks. I omitted many, many more, from Sen. Allen ("macaca") to the numerous and rancid opinions of Sen. Helms. I could write a book on the racist pronouncements of Republican elected officials; in fact, I'm sure one has been written already. As I said, there is a reason black people don't vote Republican, and pace wannago, it's not because they are the dupes of cynical Democrats.
Two, these gentlemen are not obscure Republicans in the hinterlands. They are members of the world's most powerful organization, the United States Congress. They are the leaders of the Republican Party. (If I wanted to go down to the state and local level, I could find quotes that would really curdle your hair.)
Three, I dispute the idea that this was a "misstatement". There is only one reason for a forty-nine-year-old white man to refer to a forty-six-year-old black man as "that boy". It is a term with as much history behind it as the n-bomb. I will reiterate my belief that if a Democratic Senator had referred to Obama as "that boy", even in the most positive context, he would have been censured by his party. I recall Sen. Biden taking heat merely for calling Obama "articulate"! The Republicans said absolutely nothing about Rep. Davis' remark.
Maybe I'm presumptive in saying that I've made an ironclad case for Republican racism, but I think I've made a pretty fair one. Especially given the total lack of substantive disputes from the other side. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
Three things. One, this was not an isolated incident. I quoted several other Republican elected officials and their paid staffers making racist remarks. I omitted many, many more, from Sen. Allen ("macaca") to the numerous and rancid opinions of Sen. Helms.
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and what happened to Mr. Allen? He lost. Helms hasn't been a Senator in years. Wow, powerful argument you got there.
| Quote: |
Two, these gentlemen are not obscure Republicans in the hinterlands. They are members of the world's most powerful organization, the United States Congress. They are the leaders of the Republican Party. (If I wanted to go down to the state and local level, I could find quotes that would really curdle your hair.) |
Gentlemen? Isn't this just about one congressman in Northern KY? Did I miss other recent examples?
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| Maybe I'm presumptive in saying that I've made an ironclad case for Republican racism, but I think I've made a pretty fair one. Especially given the total lack of substantive disputes from the other side. |
One dude. Wow. I'm blown away. 1 current congressman=the GOP leadership. Interesting. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Maybe I'm presumptive in saying that I've made an ironclad case for Republican racism, but I think I've made a pretty fair one. Especially given the total lack of substantive disputes from the other side. |
I disagree. Further, I do not know what your purposes are here, but, assuming for a moment that you wish to convince Republicans here to change their views or modify their party's behavior, as you see it, you have gone about it entirely wrong.
I will let Gandhi explain why...
Gandhi wrote and said, in describing his concept, "satyagraha," that we must not harbor anger or ill-will in our hearts when confronting our opponents and seeking to transform our or others' unjust relationship with them. Here lies half the battle, Gandhi advised. And the point is to liquidate antagonisms but not the antagonists themselves. Never embarrass the wrong-doer. If we want to convert our opponents we must present them their better and nobler sides and not dangle their faults before them.
I am quoting Gandhi virtually word for word here.
I freely admit that I could better approach debate on this message board according to these respectable principles. But your starting threads of this nature will accomplish absolutely nothing at all except provide you with an artificial space to use "the other side" as a foil and then congratulate yourself for moral superiority and, you believe, your discrediting the Republican Party once-and-for-all.
But you merely preach to the converted. And you sustain preexisting antagonisms. No more no less. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Gandhi wrote and said, in describing his concept, "satyagraha," that we must not harbor anger or ill-will in our hearts when confronting our opponents and seeking to transform our or others' unjust relationship with them. Here lies half the battle, Gandhi advised. And the point is to liquidate antagonisms but not the antagonists themselves. Never embarrass the wrong-doer. If we want to convert our opponents we must present them their better and nobler sides and not dangle their faults before them.
I am quoting Gandhi virtually word for word here. |
So, I erred in putting everyone in the thread on Epic Fail notice?
Meh. But its wierd to see Gopher quote Ghandhi. I thought he was a Republican, and therefore racist? Oh, right, that's only GOP leaders. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Meh. But its wierd to see Gopher quote Ghandhi. I thought he was a Republican, and therefore racist? Oh, right, that's only GOP leaders. |
George Bush hates dead Indians! |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Meh. But its wierd to see Gopher quote Ghandhi. I thought he was a Republican, and therefore racist? Oh, right, that's only GOP leaders. |
It certainly looks like GOP leaders are racists, and sexists too. Otherwise, they would not have needed to do this.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8659.html
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GOP Polling To See How Far The Can Attack Minorities And Women.
The Politico | David Paul Kuhn | February 24, 2008 11:41 PM
Top Republican strategists are working on plans to protect the GOP from charges of racism or sexism in the general election, as they prepare for a presidential campaign against the first ever African-American or female Democratic nominee.
The Republican National Committee has commissioned polling and focus groups to determine the boundaries of attacking a minority or female candidate, according to people involved. The secretive effort underscores the enormous risk senior GOP operatives see for a party often criticized for its insensitivity to minorities in campaigns dating back to the 1960s.
The RNC project is viewed as so sensitive that those involved in the work were reluctant to discuss the findings in detail. But one Republican strategist, who asked that his name be withheld to speak candidly, said the research shows the daunting and delicate task ahead.
Republicans will be told to �be sensitive to tone and stick to the substance of the discussion� and that �the key is that you have to be sensitive to the fact that you are running against historic firsts,� the strategist explained.
�You can�t run against Barack Obama the way you could run against Bill Clinton, Al Gore or John Kerry,� said Jack Kemp, the 1996 GOP vice presidential nominee, who expressed concern that the party could be reduced to an �all white country club party� if it does not tread cautiously. |
What, they can't attack Sen. Obama or Sen. Clinton on the issues? They can't attack their records? Why does it always have to be a race and or sex thing (see Harold Ford, 2006)? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Meh. But its wierd to see Gopher quote Ghandhi. I thought he was a Republican, and therefore racist? Oh, right, that's only GOP leaders. |
George Bush hates dead Indians! |
I thought he liked the dead Indians. Those are the good ones, right?
Oh, crap, now I'm a Republican, too. *Searches out gun with which to cling* |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
So, I erred in putting everyone in the thread on Epic Fail notice?
Meh. But its wierd to see Gopher quote Ghandhi. I thought he was a Republican, and therefore racist? Oh, right, that's only GOP leaders. |
Kuros: it is G-A-N-D-H-I. Great Soul, Mahatma. Come on, man. And hold your fire. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| As I said, there is a reason black people don't vote Republican, and pace wannago, it's not because they are the dupes of cynical Democrats. |
I strongly disagree with this. It most certainly is a duping of the black voter. Black people believe that Democrats will better look after them and their people than will Republicans. Why? Programs like Affirmative Action. The Democrats repeat ad nauseum that these kinds of programs will level the playing field but, what they fail to mention, is that it takes determination, hard work and achievement off the playing field. That, coupled with Democrats, like yourself, calling the GOP racist, makes for a rather serious case of duping the black voter. And, even though Kuros thinks its overkill, I still contend that it is tantamount to racism. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
[.., you can simply start in with the tu quoque and "Look Over There! A Democrat Did Something Bad!"
Sad, really. But so predictable. |
Isn't this entire thread an example of "Look Over There! A Republican Did Something Bad!" ?
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