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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| The major problem in China and China's relations with the outside world is its ethnocentrism, the Chinese belief that China represents the universe's center and those of us who fall outside of it are barbarians, partly from which its nationalism emerges. One sees this to a lesser degree in South Korea, too, especially regards Koreans' use of the word "foreigner." |
It's a good thing America doesn't feel that way. 
I do think that the Chinese system is authoritarian and repressive. However, any foreigner who called the American government "a bunch of goons and thugs" would be reviled by Americans. (No need to confine this to hypotheticals: Hugo Chavez says that kind of stuff all the time. He's not exactly Mr. Popularity over here.) Is it really so surprising that the Chinese feel slighted and attacked when the West engages in constant tirades against their government? Do we expect Chinese to be able to separate "my government" from "my country" when Americans clearly cannot? Especially given our stated and practiced belief that we have the right to unilaterally invade and remove governments we deem repressive?
America's current problem in the world is that we are asking other countries to adhere to standards of conduct that we refuse to adhere to ourselves. It's the classic egoist's dilemma; I think Bill Watterson expressed it best. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Enter accute U.S.-centrismitis. More firmly entrenched in leftist thinking than the geocentric model of the universe ever was in all humanity.
This is a thread about China, Stillnotking. Why must every single thread on this message board return to people's dislike and hatred of America? Why do people so obviously squirm like that and move to set the record straight anytime anything critical is ever said about anyone else besides America in world affairs?
That being said, I am hardly going out on any limbs in saying what I said about Chinese ethnocentrism. Why so intolerant of that critique?
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Enter U.S.-centrisimitis. More firmly entrenched in leftist thinking than the geocentric model of the universe ever was in all of humanity.
This is a thread about China, Stillnotking. Why must every single thread on this message board return to people's dislike and hatred of America? |
Why must any criticism of American exceptionalism be misconstrued as hatred of America?
As to whether the topic is germane, well, the Chinese certainly think so. And it's hard to blame them. If your neighbor who runs a whorehouse defames you for selling crack, what's your first response going to be? Of course pointing out hypocrisy is not an argument, but it is emotionally important to human beings, and therefore it is important. Why try to ignore it? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Why must any criticism of American exceptionalism be misconstrued as hatred of America? |
Because your (and many others') critique exceeds reason. You do not criticize this or that. You denounce the entire thing as irredeemable. You resort to quick and easy harsh, negative stereotyping, as in, for example, your treatment of the Republican Party elsewhere. You seem to find little that is good about America. America, in your view, is analogous to a hypocritical neighbor who runs a whorehouse, sells crack, and defames those around it.
In any case, I find it revealing that you cannot talk about Chinese affairs without sneering and literally rolling your eyes at America.
So, as usual, now this thread is going to be about alleged American hypocrisy and lying, etc., etc. I am surprised it took more than a single page to get here. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Why must any criticism of American exceptionalism be misconstrued as hatred of America? |
Because your (and many others') critique exceeds reason. You do not criticize this or that. You denounce the entire thing as irredeemable. You resort to quick and easy harsh, negative stereotyping, as in, for example, your treatment of the Republican Party elsewhere. You seem to find little that is good about America.
In any case, I find it revealing that you cannot talk about Chinese affairs without sneering and literally rolling your eyes at America.
So, as usual, now this thread is going to be about alleged American hypocrisy and lying, etc., etc. I am surprised it took more than a single page to get here. |
Sounds like an opportunity to recap.
1. You said that the Chinese problem is that they see themselves as the center of the world.
2. I responded that that is the American problem too.
3. You accused me of hating America.
Somebody derailed the thread, but it's not me. My intent was to point out that unreasoning nationalism and defensiveness are common human attributes, and that we all live in glass houses. (Your ad hom, nationalistic response is an excellent corroborating argument, btw.) No viable framework of international law can start from the premise that one nation is better than the rest. That's not law, it's imperialism. That is what I was rolling my eyes at.
If any of this qualifies as "harsh, easy, negative stereotyping", then what you wrote about China certainly qualifies as well. (I don't think either one does. Generalizations are not the same as stereotypes, and it's impossible to talk about international politics without generalizing.) I certainly don't hate America, and I could list plenty of good things about my country... but talk about derailing the thread! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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No. My position is simply this: it amuses me that you are unable to discuss Chinese affairs without squirming and then hurling allegations at America.
Why must all conversations about anyone anywhere in world affairs necessarily involve America's faults and shortcomings? U.S.-centrismitis, that is why. And those who suffer from it live in a world of worse denial than any alcoholic ever did. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
No. My position is simply this: it amuses me that you are unable to discuss Chinese affairs without squirming and then hurling allegations at America.
Why must all conversations about anyone anywhere in world affairs necessarily involve America's faults and shortcomings? U.S.-centrismitis, that is why. And those who suffer from it live in a world of worse denial than any alcoholic ever did. |
So the Chinese suffer from US-centrismitis? They routinely respond to US criticism by pointing out US hypocrisy.
It's a fact. It has to be dealt with. Airy dismissals don't help. The only way to be a good example is to walk the talk. Until we do, our demands for reform will have little traction in China. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| This is not about Chinese U.S.-centrismitis or international relations and I have never suggested that the Chinese change their ways; it is about Dave's ESL Cafe's U.S.-centrismitis. One small, tiny corner of the world where people cannot devise and play a single conversational game where "America" is not the ball. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/21/opinion/edchina.php
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As the Summer Olympics approach, some disturbing aspects of contemporary China are coming into view. A worldwide audience has learned what human rights activists have long known about Beijing's complicity with dictatorships in Sudan and Burma.
The Chinese Communists' harsh repression in Tibet sparked protests along the route of the Olympic torch relay and on college campuses.
And as China spreads blatant lies that the Dalai Lama is inciting violence in Tibet, the government's campaign to keep the Olympics free from politics looks like an excuse for imposing on the rest of the world the sort of censorship that prevails inside China.
There has also been a less obvious revelation: an increasingly zealous nationalism among Chinese youth. This mood of patriotic passion can be seen in counter-demonstrations organized by Chinese student associations in the United States against supporters of a free Tibet.
It is no less striking in Internet imprecations fired off not only against Tibetan "splittists" but also against the rare Chinese student who dares to call for mutual understanding between Chinese and Tibetans.
This kind of witch-hunting occurred at Duke University last week, when a 20-year-old freshman from mainland China tried to encourage dialogue between a large group of Chinese student demonstrators and a smaller group of Tibetans and their supporters holding a vigil for human rights. She was vilified as a traitor. Her personal information was released into cyberspace. Hundreds of thousands of angry and threatening posts appeared on Chinese Web sites. Her parents back in China were threatened and had to go into hiding for their own safety.
It is not easy to determine how much of this nationalistic frenzy may have been fostered and organized by Chinese Communist officials and how much is attributable to the sort of high-spirited group pride common to the youth of other nations.
The Beijing authorities eased up on their restriction of online forums as they observed the patriotic tenor of reactions to foreign criticism.
There is a crucial distinction between a healthy, constructive nationalism and the pathological variety that Hitler sought to inject into the Berlin Olympics of 1936.
Nevertheless, the nationalistic vehemence that has come into view this spring among China's best and brightest is a troubling phenomenon.
It suggests that nationalism has replaced Maoism or Marxism as the legitimating credo of China rulers - and that the critical spirit defining the Tiananmen protests of 1989 has given way in some quarters to an emotional identification with the ancient idols of blood and soil. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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So true. IHT editorials are usually worth reading, and this one is spot on. Nationalism is easily elevated to pathological levels. The Chinese state has already accomplished the first phase of this transition by successfully censoring the internet -- and convincing eighty-five percent of Chinese people that the state should censor it.
China scares the hell out of me. Every criticism the West makes of Chinese government policy simply strengthens the grip of the autocrats by giving them a useful bogeyman. I don't know what China, or the world, will look like in fifty years. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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China is fine. These things will blow over. Hopefully the olympics will go without any major hitch. Anyone comparing China to Nazi Germany is a fucking idiot though.
I support most of the causes against China like pulling out of Sudan, Burma etc but the medium of attacking the olympic games which was supposed to be China's coming out party to celebrate many of the great things that are happening was silly. Anyone with any experience in China or East Asia for that matter could have advised that humiliating the hosts was not the way to get what you want.
*Typos edited*
Last edited by pugwall on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| ...humiliating the hosts was not the way to get what you want. |
Well said. But that is not how Western activists and the Western media operate, unfortunately. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
China is fine. These things will blow over. Hopefully the olympics will go without any major hitch. Anyone comparing China to Nazi Germany is a fucking idiot though.
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1.Forced abortions
2.Control of Religon
3.Total control of the press
4.Absolute power centered in a party elite
5.Millitary pretentions
6.A total lack of human rights
7.A population that feels everything is 'somebody' elses fault 'ie the US, the West'
8.A desire to take control of 'regions' that are really 'Chinese' like Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia
9.Ethnic Supremacy-Han Chinese Rule
10.A population that supports these policies
--Sounds like Nazi Germany to me. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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