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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| As I said, there is a reason black people don't vote Republican, and pace wannago, it's not because they are the dupes of cynical Democrats. |
I strongly disagree with this. It most certainly is a duping of the black voter. Black people believe that Democrats will better look after them and their people than will Republicans. |
You can't be serious.
Oh, you ARE serious!
Let's ask actual Black folks why they usually don't vote Republican.
http://www.michaelfauntroy.com/2006/11/and_you_wonder_.html
| Quote: |
| House Republicans slapped African Americans in the face again and, given the history of this country that required the implementation of the Voting Rights Act in the first place, poured political salt in wounds that haven�t healed. Along with the controversial 2000 and 2004 presidential elections that clearly disenfranchised Black voters and the GOPs standing among African Americans, the GOP proves, yet again, that it just doesn�t get it with regard to Black voters. |
http://boards.blackvoices.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ti-welcome&tid=25498
| Quote: |
Now, in the real world, the GOP still tolerates racists. Not the "I'm not comfortable around black people kind" or the "my family would never accept a black person kind", but the "I hate co*ns" kind. Some would never ever use those words, but the GOP has two problems with blacks, and they don't care about addressing either one.
First, they are still coddling the racists.
Instead of admitting that they have people who want to keep America white, an impossible goal, they talk and dance around it. The cold, hard fact is, from black America, the GOP is the party of bigots and black lackies. Rudy Giuliani, a man many New Yorkers regard as racist to his core, who actively disenfranchised black New Yorkers. who disrespected black officials, is now feted at Reagan Foundation events. No one has forgotten his callousness towards black New York and his message that he didn't care about or need us. Yet, GOP officials push this guy as some kind of hero. Giuliani is so racially driven, that when Saturday Night Live had 100 firefighters, EMS and cops on their stage, not a black or latino officer was to be seen. Not one.
How can you expect to get black votes when the racists are still in the party? |
http://postbourgie.com/2008/03/22/why-black-people-wont-join-the-republican-party/
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| Why would any black person, conservative or not, whose watched the War on Drugs, who watched the prisons fill up with black men, vote for a Republican if that�s the party line? There isn�t even a debate over what a conservative policy towards black people would be. None. Just scrap Affirmative Action. But then what? Nothing? As you guys know, I�m a flaming lefty. But I don�t think black people siding with liberals, because conservatives have nothing to say to them is a good thing for this country. I would love it if black folks voted Democratic because they saw the great wisdom of liberal policy. But that ain�t it. They vote Democratic, because they know that the other party simply has nothing to say to them. Indeed, doesn�t even want to say anything to them. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| As I said, there is a reason black people don't vote Republican, and pace wannago, it's not because they are the dupes of cynical Democrats. |
I strongly disagree with this. It most certainly is a duping of the black voter. Black people believe that Democrats will better look after them and their people than will Republicans. |
Let's ask actual Black folks why they usually don't vote Republican.
http://www.michaelfauntroy.com/2006/11/and_you_wonder_.html
| Quote: |
| House Republicans slapped African Americans in the face again and, given the history of this country that required the implementation of the Voting Rights Act in the first place, poured political salt in wounds that haven�t healed. Along with the controversial 2000 and 2004 presidential elections that clearly disenfranchised Black voters and the GOPs standing among African Americans, the GOP proves, yet again, that it just doesn�t get it with regard to Black voters. |
http://boards.blackvoices.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ti-welcome&tid=25498
| Quote: |
Now, in the real world, the GOP still tolerates racists. Not the "I'm not comfortable around black people kind" or the "my family would never accept a black person kind", but the "I hate co*ns" kind. Some would never ever use those words, but the GOP has two problems with blacks, and they don't care about addressing either one.
First, they are still coddling the racists.
Instead of admitting that they have people who want to keep America white, an impossible goal, they talk and dance around it. The cold, hard fact is, from black America, the GOP is the party of bigots and black lackies. Rudy Giuliani, a man many New Yorkers regard as racist to his core, who actively disenfranchised black New Yorkers. who disrespected black officials, is now feted at Reagan Foundation events. No one has forgotten his callousness towards black New York and his message that he didn't care about or need us. Yet, GOP officials push this guy as some kind of hero. Giuliani is so racially driven, that when Saturday Night Live had 100 firefighters, EMS and cops on their stage, not a black or latino officer was to be seen. Not one.
How can you expect to get black votes when the racists are still in the party? |
http://postbourgie.com/2008/03/22/why-black-people-wont-join-the-republican-party/
| Quote: |
| Why would any black person, conservative or not, whose watched the War on Drugs, who watched the prisons fill up with black men, vote for a Republican if that�s the party line? There isn�t even a debate over what a conservative policy towards black people would be. None. Just scrap Affirmative Action. But then what? Nothing? As you guys know, I�m a flaming lefty. But I don�t think black people siding with liberals, because conservatives have nothing to say to them is a good thing for this country. I would love it if black folks voted Democratic because they saw the great wisdom of liberal policy. But that ain�t it. They vote Democratic, because they know that the other party simply has nothing to say to them. Indeed, doesn�t even want to say anything to them. |
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That's it? Two quotes saying "they just don't get us" and one with "Republicans are racists! Just look at Guliani!! He disrespected black leaders so he and and Republicans are racist!!!"  Hell, I don't agree with any of your argument and I could've done better than this.
These, actually, prove my point. These people are just spouting the party line. Blacks have been lied to for so long by the Democrats that they can't see the racism inherent in a program like Affirmative Action. Of course Democrats say things like: "this levels the playing field" and "we will get you what you deserve" and "Republicans are all racists!!!" Now black Republicans are called "Uncle Toms" and other vilifying names simply because they will not buy the lies anymore. If the GOP is guilty of anything, it is not exposing these lies earlier. Now, it is too late. Black folks take Democrat lies as truth.
I wonder how many Black people are told this by the Democratic Party?
| Quote: |
| And when it comes time to vote, remember this: It was Republicans who enabled passage of civil rights legislation--more Democrats than Republicans voted against it. Among the opponents: Sen. Albert Gore, Sr., of Tennessee, father of ...[2000] Democrat presidential candidate Al Gore. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Today's Republican bears ZERO resemblance to a pre-Reagan Republican. You know that. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Maybe I'm presumptive in saying that I've made an ironclad case for Republican racism, but I think I've made a pretty fair one. Especially given the total lack of substantive disputes from the other side. |
I disagree. Further, I do not know what your purposes are here, but, assuming for a moment that you wish to convince Republicans here to change their views or modify their party's behavior, as you see it, you have gone about it entirely wrong.
I will let Gandhi explain why...
Gandhi wrote and said, in describing his concept, "satyagraha," that we must not harbor anger or ill-will in our hearts when confronting our opponents and seeking to transform our or others' unjust relationship with them. Here lies half the battle, Gandhi advised. And the point is to liquidate antagonisms but not the antagonists themselves. Never embarrass the wrong-doer. If we want to convert our opponents we must present them their better and nobler sides and not dangle their faults before them.
I am quoting Gandhi virtually word for word here.
I freely admit that I could better approach debate on this message board according to these respectable principles. But your starting threads of this nature will accomplish absolutely nothing at all except provide you with an artificial space to use "the other side" as a foil and then congratulate yourself for moral superiority and, you believe, your discrediting the Republican Party once-and-for-all.
But you merely preach to the converted. And you sustain preexisting antagonisms. No more no less. |
This is a fair criticism and I thank you for your civility. On reflection, you're right that I have been intemperate at times.
However. The other side of Gandhi was that he was an uncompromising idealist who was never willing to water down his principles or refrain from calling a spade a spade (if you'll pardon the expression). Gandhi never refrained from pointing out injustice for fear of offending someone. I can be less personal in my criticism, but I cannot stop making it. The Republican Party is an organization that tolerates racism among its leaders. If that offends present Republicans, then I apologize, but it remains true, and the fact is that it is incumbent upon Republicans to do something about it.
That fact is going to cause antagonism. (Gandhi certainly inspired his share, and eventually it killed him.) I'm responsible for my antagonism, but I'm not responsible for yours. I will do my best to be mindful of mine. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Today's Republican bears ZERO resemblance to a pre-Reagan Republican. You know that. |
Huh? Parties don't reinvent themselves overnight. Reagan was firmly in the mold of Republican politics both before him and since. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| As I said, there is a reason black people don't vote Republican, and pace wannago, it's not because they are the dupes of cynical Democrats. |
I strongly disagree with this. It most certainly is a duping of the black voter. Black people believe that Democrats will better look after them and their people than will Republicans. |
You can't be serious.
Oh, you ARE serious!
Let's ask actual Black folks why they usually don't vote Republican. |
No, no, you can't do that, because they don't know why they don't vote Republican. False consciousness, you see.
I seem to recall a certain black Democratic candidate getting dinged for his "condescension" in positing a (much tamer) false consciousness theory about the white-working-class Rust Belters. Apparently that is not a two-way street. Surprise.
Everyone occasionally feels the temptation to condescend to their political opponents, who are obviously the dupes of unscrupulous enemy politicians. It's a temptation that needs to be resisted, strongly. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Well the Project for a New American Century isn't racist. The republicans involved there would not fit on this thread. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Well the Project for a New American Century isn't racist. The republicans involved there would not fit on this thread. |
Very true. The racism in the GOP proceeds almost entirely from the party's social-conservative wing, not its national-security or fiscal-conservative wings.
On the other hand, the DefCons and FisCons are certainly willing to tolerate the SoCons' racism if it helps them win elections. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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For placing race-markers on and then forcing all "blacks" into a single category and assuming that "they" vote this or that way, that is, that they share monolithic interests determined by their skin color, and for failing to recognize that some African-American men and women vote Democratic, some African-American men and women vote Republican (as Joo points out, above), and, like many Americans, some African-American men and women vote for other candidates or not at all, you are all ignorant racists.
Where is that pic that Kuros posted a page ago...? |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
For placing race-markers on and then forcing all "blacks" into a single category and assuming that "they" vote this or that way, that is, that they share monolithic interests determined by their skin color, and for failing to recognize that some African-American men and women vote Democratic, some African-American men and women vote Republican (as Joo points out, above), and, like many Americans, some African-American men and women vote for other candidates or not at all, you are all ignorant racists.
Where is that pic that Kuros posted a page ago...? |
Really now. If ninety percent of blacks vote Democratic when they could just as easily vote Republican, it's fair to characterize the black vote as Democratic. By your metric, no one can talk about demographics at all without being a racist.
I tend to assume that everyone recognizes generalizations for what they are, i.e. conceptually useful but not literally descriptive of every single member of a group. And most people do recognize this, except when it suits their purposes not to. |
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