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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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[double post deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| pugwall wrote: |
China is fine. These things will blow over. Hopefully the olympics will go without any major hitch. Anyone comparing China to Nazi Germany is a fucking idiot though.
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1.Forced abortions
2.Control of Religon
3.Total control of the press
4.Absolute power centered in a party elite
5.Military pretentions
6.A total lack of human rights
7.A population that feels everything is 'somebody' elses fault 'ie the US, the West'
8.A desire to take control of 'regions' that are really 'Chinese' like Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia
9.Ethnic Supremacy-Han Chinese Rule
10.A population that supports these policies
--Sounds like Nazi Germany to me. |
I bolded the hyperbole and added decisive emphasis to #5.
Control of the press is not total, although they have been winning the cyber-crackdown. The party elite does not have absolute power, because there's still tension and in-fighting between the central gov't and provincial leaders. There is not a 'total' lack of human rights. This is not Zimbabwe or the Sudan, mind you. There is a rule of law, but corruption is a constant concern. Lastly, and perhaps most critical to undermining your comparison to Nazi Germany, the CCP is more distant from the people than Hitler and the Nazis were. Remember: Hitler was an advocate and activist for the working class, and through national supremacy he sought to turn the state to work for all the citizenry through the machine of war. The CCP is filled with bureaucrats and technocrats concerned above all with filling the few public business positions left with their progeny and looting the apparatus of the state before the wave of privitization beats them to it. In other words, the CCP will manipulate and restrain nationalist fervor, unlike Hitler who really bought into it. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
So true. IHT editorials are usually worth reading, and this one is spot on. Nationalism is easily elevated to pathological levels. The Chinese state has already accomplished the first phase of this transition by successfully censoring the internet -- and convincing eighty-five percent of Chinese people that the state should censor it.
China scares the hell out of me. Every criticism the West makes of Chinese government policy simply strengthens the grip of the autocrats by giving them a useful bogeyman. I don't know what China, or the world, will look like in fifty years. |
True China is run by autocrats. But they had better not piss off the peasantry as it only takes 5% to bring about change just like in Gorbacheve's perastroika. The Tiannenman square biz freaked them out big time and change came in improved freedom. The autocrats gained their position originally from the peasants and they are aware of this.
However, China needs more oil than it has to consolidate it's military machine(got it's nose in Darfur as there are large unexploited deposits of oil, Iran reliable supplier) as well as it's biz enterprises in-country. Apart from Tibet I don't think they're up to a full on scrap with a superpower. Thus, had better concentrate on maintaining unity within the rank and file(nationalism)
The BS about the family in Chongqing who refused to sell their home(The city carved out the land around it and built around them; radical) brought about change too as people posted on the internet for the world to see and for local chinese to see forcing the regional party chiefs to offer a fair price. |
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genezorm
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: Mokpo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
I've just been chatting with my (ex) g/f in China.
She's "outraged" that foreigners think Tibet should be independent. "Tibet is China, they are a minority" etc rants.
Chinese are even more brainwashed than koreans I believe. Both are countries where there has been only one official viewpoint presented for sooooo long that they can only think one way.  |
Yes, the Chinese are brainwashed, etc, etc, etc.
I don't know. As an American, I'm kind of glad we took the land we did from Mexico and the natives. I'm sure Canadians feel the same way about land taken from the natives.
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I'm glad that we got to take the land from those savages who were living in America before the enlightened ones got there. They wouldn't know how to run government if they tired.
I'm also glad that we had the balls to get Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam and Saipan. You don't see them bitching for autonomy! Beacause US and A is number 1! |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I would prefer raiding the next town over for horses, skins, and young women rather than this work and dating farce we have set up now, but its too late to change that.
If China had accidentally introduced smallpox into the Tibetan population, thinning them to 10% of their former population, and then slowly kept expanding west over the course of 200 years pushing the Tibetans further and further into the mountains, finally culminating in making reservations in the most inhospitable and yet sacred mountains in Tibet for the survivors, then you might have an equivalent argument with the US and the Indians. If China had 'liberated' Tibet from India in a war and then never let go of it, then you might have another argument between the Philippines and the US. |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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I discussed this with two Chinese PhD chemistry research students I shared an office with in Australia. These guys were bright, had good English and enjoyed robust discussion. Further, they were not young and silly, they were in their late 30's, well traveled and intelligent.
The line one delivered that stumped me was well thought out, and delivered with a knowledge of my belief system developed over 2 years of discussion.
�So you think China should leave Tibet, and the Dali Lama should be their leader?�
�Yep.�
�Ever hear about separation of the church and state?�
h |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| genezorm wrote: |
I'm glad that we got to take the land from those savages who were living in Tibet before the enlightened ones got there. They wouldn't know how to run government if they tired.
I'm also glad that we had the balls to get Macau, Mongolia, Hong Kong and Taiwan. ! Beacause China is number 1! |
U sound just like her. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| mnhnhyouh wrote: |
I discussed this with two Chinese PhD chemistry research students I shared an office with in Australia. These guys were bright, had good English and enjoyed robust discussion. Further, they were not young and silly, they were in their late 30's, well traveled and intelligent.
The line one delivered that stumped me was well thought out, and delivered with a knowledge of my belief system developed over 2 years of discussion.
�So you think China should leave Tibet, and the Dali Lama should be their leader?�
�Yep.�
�Ever hear about separation of the church and state?�
h |
I would have said, "Absolutely, and I believe in it one hundred percent, but that's up to the Tibetans because it's their f***ing country. I'm sure if they want my advice, they'll ask for it." |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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thats really bad. The chinese have lost the moral high ground on jin jing issue |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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The Beijing Olympics are going to be a total clusterfuck.
"One World, My Ass."
(Disclaimer: The above slogan is in no way intended to be construed as a personal invitation.) |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| genezorm wrote: |
I'm glad that we got to take the land from those savages who were living in Tibet before the enlightened ones got there. They wouldn't know how to run government if they tired.
I'm also glad that we had the balls to get Macau, Mongolia, Hong Kong and Taiwan. ! Beacause China is number 1! |
U sound just like her. |
I'm pretty sure he was trying to sound like a nationalistic Chinese. I'm almost positive his post was ironic. Particularly because there are independence movements in Hawaii and Puerto Rico, for example.
But I don't support independence for Tibet. It would do more harm than good. Tibet can be part of China AND have autonomy.
Of course, there's a vast difference between US actions vis-a-vis Hawaii and Puerto Rico and China's actions towards Tibet. But I don't expect the anti-American proles to understand such subtleties. I will simply have to accept being painted as an ignorant, nationalistic American by douches on an internet chatboard. Woe is me! |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Of course, there's a vast difference between US actions vis-a-vis Hawaii and Puerto Rico and China's actions towards Tibet. But I don't expect the anti-American proles to understand such subtleties. I will simply have to accept being painted as an ignorant, nationalistic American by douches on an internet chatboard. Woe is me! |
Nice preemptive strike, but you know I always prefer to alleviate ignorance rather than call names:
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In 1893, Queen Liliuokalani announced plans to establish a new constitution that would have replaced the so-called "Bayonet Constitution" that was established during the reign of King Kalakaua by American and European residents under threat of violence. The new constitution would have restored much power to the monarchy, but this was opposed by (mainly foreign) business elites. On January 14, 1893, a group of American and Europeans formed a Committee of Safety in opposition to the Queen, and seized control of government. United States Government Minister John L. Stevens, responding to a request from the Committee of Safety expressing concern about possible violence directed against American citizens, summoned a company of uniformed U.S. Marines to come ashore to enforce neutrality. As one historian noted, the presence of these troops effectively made it impossible for the monarchy to protect itself.
The overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani was successful and the monarchy ended in January 1893. It was replaced by a Provisional Government composed of members of the Committee of Safety. There was much controversy in the following years as the queen tried to regain her throne. The administration of President Grover Cleveland commissioned the Blount Report, which concluded that the overthrow of Liliʻuokalani was illegal. The U.S. Government first demanded that Queen Liliʻuokalani be reinstated, but the Provisional Government refused. Congress responded to Cleveland's referral with another investigation, and submitted the Morgan Report by the U.S. Senate on February 26, 1894, which found all parties (including Minister Stevens) with the exception of the queen "not guilty" from any responsibility for the overthrow. The accuracy and impartiality of both the Blount and Morgan reports has been questioned by partisans on both sides of the historical debate over the events of 1893.
In 1993, a joint Apology Resolution regarding the overthrow was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, apologizing for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom. |
Not too terribly different from the annexation of Tibet after all, was it? If anything, China has a far stronger claim on Tibet today than the U.S. did on the Hawaiian Islands in the late 19th century. Tibet has been a Chinese vassal state for centuries. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Two wrongs make a right stillnotking?
Here is what else the Chinese have been doing:
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1. Chinese arms company NORINCO (owned by the Chinese military) was recently revealed to have been trying to sell half a million AK47s and 10 million rounds of ammo to Libya, via middlemen in the Italian mafia. The AK47 is an elderly weapon (60+ years old), and even the Libyans wouldn't use it to equip their armed forces nowadays. And 500,000 guns would way oversupply the Libyan military, which is only 100,000. The likely end customers? Various revolutionary groups (i.e. terrorists) in Africa and around the world. In other words, Gaddafi is up to his usual mischief and China is all too willing to oblige him, for the right price of course.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20080415.aspx
2. New Chinese bomber aircraft are showing up in Sudan, no doubt violating one toothless UN resolution or another. Improved bombers will allow the Khartoum regime to better kill their own people in Darfur and elsewhere in the country. China doesn't care, as long as they are paid and the oil keeps flowing.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200841722369.asp
3. Last week a Chinese merchant vessel full of weapons for the detestable regime of Robert Mugabe in (landlocked) Zimbabwe showed up in Durban, South Africa for unloading. The contents of the Chinese shipment include, according to the Guardian (UK):
... 3.5m rounds of ammunition for AK47 assault rifles and for small arms, 1,500 40mm rockets, 2,500 mortar shells of 60mm and 81mm calibre, as well as 93 cases of mortar tubes
These supplies will naturally allow Mugabe's thugs to better brutalize and terrorize his own people, who are languishing under nearly 30 years of Mugabe's tyranny. Mugabe's continued rule is at least in part underwritten by his backers in Beijing. The dockworkers in Durban, to their credit, refused to handle or offload the cargo.
The Chinese ship is now reportedly en route to Mozambique, the country with an AK47 on their flag, and where the dockworkers will presumably be more cooperative.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/18/china.armstrade
4. China's covert cyber war against the entire planet (with the possible exception of Russia) continues. Late last week, hackers traced back to China took down the CNN website here in east Asia for several hours. Apparently, CNN coverage of the anti China protesters surrounding the aforementioned Torch Run have angered the government-sanctioned hackers in the Middle Kingdom.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/18/cnn.websites/index.html
(content from pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com) |
And my favorite:
5.
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| A Shanghai pharma company may have managed to disqualify the entire Greek weightlifting team from the Olympics after shipping them tainted health supplements. A surprise inspection of the Greek team by the World Anti-Doping Agency revealed that 11 of the team?s athletes had unapproved substances in their systems. The Chinese firm has already apologized for providing the bad product, saying: ?We send [sic] you L-tyrosine mixed with something else that it [sic] only for research purposes.? |
(from the South China Morning Post)
Pharma-nationalism! A world first! |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Two wrongs make a right stillnotking? |
Good Lord, no. Two wrongs make two wrongs. If my post came across as justifying China's Tibet policies, I wrote it very badly indeed. |
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