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Really getting ugly in Beijing
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like it when China is being dragged through the rhetorical coals for legitimate reasons and people then bring up what a totally unrelated other (usually the US) did in the past as a conversation-killer.

China will have to find an appropriate way to deal with her ethnic minorities. Right now, the Han majority is riding a wave of racist superiority emotions. That will not help the situation. The Tibetans are in fact the least likely of the major groups to cause serious problems during the Olympics. China should be looking at the problems that nations like Canada, NZ, Oz, Bolivia, Chile, Brazil and the US have with the colonial and indigenous populations and trying at all costs to avoid the problems that those states now face.

And Canada is going to get the international smack-down for the Vancouver Olympics. I wonder if any Canadians will say "Look at what China did in Tibet" to justify what Europeans did in the past.
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Cheonmunka



Joined: 04 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Last week a Chinese merchant vessel full of weapons for the detestable regime of Robert Mugabe in (landlocked) Zimbabwe showed up in Durban, South Africa for unloading. The contents of the Chinese shipment include, according to the Guardian (UK):

... 3.5m rounds of ammunition for AK47 assault rifles and for small arms, 1,500 40mm rockets, 2,500 mortar shells of 60mm and 81mm calibre, as well as 93 cases of mortar tubes


It's not cool. I wrote a letter to the editor, unpublished, about New Zealand brokering it's ex-military weapons in Africa. Some African militia got their hands on 2000 ex-NZArmy m16's in the late 90's.

I fear that all countries do this.
Not just China.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, many nations do this. But right now two of the biggest political crises on earth are in Zimbabwe and in Sudan. Both have Chinese fingerprints all over them.

Moreover, this weapons shipment is coming at a time when Mugabe won't release electoral results and is likely preparing to just toss aside the whole process and shoot down his opposition. I strongly doubt that the timing of this arms shipment with the strongest threat to Mugabe's power is entirely coincidental.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillnotking wrote:
mises wrote:
Two wrongs make a right stillnotking?


Good Lord, no. Two wrongs make two wrongs. If my post came across as justifying China's Tibet policies, I wrote it very badly indeed.


yup, you did. Wink

Quote:
I fear that all countries do this.
Not just China.


Well were those weapons from NZ sold by the NZ gov't or some "rogue" citizens? Sounds like the gov't by your post. Source? But yes, the west certainly has sold weapons to questionable customers.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillnotking wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Of course, there's a vast difference between US actions vis-a-vis Hawaii and Puerto Rico and China's actions towards Tibet. But I don't expect the anti-American proles to understand such subtleties. I will simply have to accept being painted as an ignorant, nationalistic American by douches on an internet chatboard. Woe is me!


Nice preemptive strike, but you know I always prefer to alleviate ignorance rather than call names:

Quote:
In 1893, Queen Liliuokalani announced plans to establish a new constitution that would have replaced the so-called "Bayonet Constitution" that was established during the reign of King Kalakaua by American and European residents under threat of violence. The new constitution would have restored much power to the monarchy, but this was opposed by (mainly foreign) business elites. On January 14, 1893, a group of American and Europeans formed a Committee of Safety in opposition to the Queen, and seized control of government. United States Government Minister John L. Stevens, responding to a request from the Committee of Safety expressing concern about possible violence directed against American citizens, summoned a company of uniformed U.S. Marines to come ashore to enforce neutrality. As one historian noted, the presence of these troops effectively made it impossible for the monarchy to protect itself.

The overthrow of Queen Liliuokalani was successful and the monarchy ended in January 1893. It was replaced by a Provisional Government composed of members of the Committee of Safety. There was much controversy in the following years as the queen tried to regain her throne. The administration of President Grover Cleveland commissioned the Blount Report, which concluded that the overthrow of Liliʻuokalani was illegal. The U.S. Government first demanded that Queen Liliʻuokalani be reinstated, but the Provisional Government refused. Congress responded to Cleveland's referral with another investigation, and submitted the Morgan Report by the U.S. Senate on February 26, 1894, which found all parties (including Minister Stevens) with the exception of the queen "not guilty" from any responsibility for the overthrow. The accuracy and impartiality of both the Blount and Morgan reports has been questioned by partisans on both sides of the historical debate over the events of 1893.

In 1993, a joint Apology Resolution regarding the overthrow was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, apologizing for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.


Not too terribly different from the annexation of Tibet after all, was it?


I'm aware of the takeover of Hawaii. The difference is that Hawaiians have an open independence movement, and there are a great many Hawaiian laws favoring natives. The fact that native Hawaiians can vote in a functioning democracy blows your argument out of the water. Ah, yes, and they can appeal to the courts. If you want a great example of just how fragile your Hawaii = America's Tibet argument is, why don't you look up Hawaii Housing Authority v Midkiff.

Quote:
If anything, China has a far stronger claim on Tibet today than the U.S. did on the Hawaiian Islands in the late 19th century. Tibet has been a Chinese vassal state for centuries.


That's debatable. Tibet had its own kingdom for a long while, and was only brought under China during the T'ang and barbarian dynasties (Yuan and Qing). Yes, at many times they were a vassal.
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Cheonmunka



Joined: 04 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Source:
Was Ross Meurant who brokered it. Search it in the Herald if so inclined ...
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
I strongly doubt that the timing of this arms shipment with the strongest threat to Mugabe's power is entirely coincidental.


he ran out of bullets and has delayed the electoral results until the shipment arrives.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[i]
Quote:
Gopher wrote:
The major problem in China and China's relations with the outside world is its ethnocentrism, the Chinese belief that China represents the universe's center and those of us who fall outside of it are barbarians, partly from which its nationalism emerges. One sees this to a lesser degree in South Korea, too, especially regards Koreans' use of the word "foreigner."



Gopher, you made an intelligent and valid point here.

I never really had an issue against China Olympics before, but when you read a number of statements like "Chinese students were bused and paid to attend and fly the Chinese flag". You really have to question the issue of a non political olympics.

Plus, my Boss ran with the torch in 2000 and I had to pick him up after the race. I watched him run and the security was minimal, (personally I never saw the crowds of security surrounding him) and today I see all the Chinese security surrounding the torch.

They made that decison to have that security before the first torch was lit. Plus they seem to be rubbing it in thier neighbors face by making sure the torch is held in all of thier neighbors houses and yet the security seems to watch the relay and the population seems to hear about it.

I do feel that China is making it look worse than it is and I understand the Chinese nationalism, but it isn't working in other countries. The Chinese attitude makes us more concerned of China and less supportive of the Olympics held in China.

So if China feels its making a good presentation why does it feel like its rubbing salt in the wound?[/quote]
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About a week ago I was looking up some information on past Olympic games on Wikpedia, and the site had the following to say about the Seoul Olympics:

Quote:
Significance of the 1988 Olympics in South Korea

Hosting the 1988 Olympics presented an opportunity to bring international attention to South Korea. The idea for South Korea to place a bid for 1988 games emerged during the last days of the Park Chung Hee administration in the late 1970s. After President Park�s assassination in 1979, Chun Doo Hwan, his successor, submitted Korea�s bid to the IOC in September 1981, in hopes that the increased international exposure brought by the Olympics would legitimize his authoritarian regime amidst increasing political pressure for democratization, provide protection from increasing threats from North Korea, and showcase the Korean economic miracle to the world community.[citation needed] South Korea was awarded the bid on September 30, 1981, becoming the 16th nation, the second Asian nation (following Japan in 1964) and the second newly industrialized economy (after Mexico in 1968) to host the games.

In an attempt to follow the model of 1964 Tokyo Olympics as a rite of passage for the Japanese economy and re-integration of Japan in the family of nations in the post-war era, the Korean government hoped to use the Olympics as a �coming out party� for the newly industrialized Korean economy. The Korean government hoped the Olympics would symbolize a new legitimacy of Korea in world affairs.

However, this attempt to provide legitimacy to the Korean government, particularly the Chun administration, backfired. The anticipation of the Olympic Games intensified world scrutiny of Korea during a time of political crisis. As political demonstrations emerged in June 1987, the possibility of jeopardizing hosting the Olympic Games contributed to the June 29 declaration which issued President Chun out of power and led to direct elections in December 1987.[citation needed] The desire not to taint the Olympic Games with military dictatorship and riots served as an impetus for Korea�s transition to democracy. Roh Tae Woo served as the transitional president, directly elected by South Koreans in December 1987, during the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games. The 1988 Olympic Games provided a catalyst for controlled political change to maintain stability in South Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Olympics


Although I doubt that history will repeat itself, it's interesting to note that hosting of the Olympic Games sometimes seems to have an unexpected effect on the polity and politics of the host country. China may well be living in interesting times.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
4. China's covert cyber war against the entire planet (with the possible exception of Russia) continues. Late last week, hackers traced back to China took down the CNN website here in east Asia for several hours. Apparently, CNN coverage of the anti China protesters surrounding the aforementioned Torch Run have angered the government-sanctioned hackers in the Middle Kingdom.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/18/cnn.websites/index.html
(content from pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com)


More, and this time India:
Quote:


NEW DELHI: China�s cyber warfare army is marching on, and India is suffering silently. Over the past one and a half years, officials said, China has mounted almost daily attacks on Indian computer networks, both government and private, showing its intent and capability. ( Watch: �China's cyber intrusion a threat� )

The sustained assault almost coincides with the history of the present political disquiet between the two countries.

According to senior government officials, these attacks are not isolated incidents of something so generic or basic as "hacking" � they are far more sophisticated and complete � and there is a method behind the madness.

http://tinyurl.com/5vhnqa
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