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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
According to the far right, he introduced Socialism into American politics and society and attempted to establish a leftist dictatorship through his efforts to pack the Supreme Court and replace conservative, Southern Democrats with Democrats more supportive of him and his non-emergency New Deal agenda. He is evil.
According to the far left, he collaborated with and sold out to the capitalists, especially on banking reform, when he should have taken advantage of their being down and then broken their backs in order to redistribute the wealth in American society to the left's satisfaction. He also failed to pass civil rights legislation, establish universal health care, or improve women's lives significantly. He is evil.
There you have it. |
Of course, I wanted to hear from wannago, but your response is delightfully satisfactory. It could be easily argued that anyone equally hated by the far ends of any spectrum is most likely on the right track.
FDR did some things that had to be done and was politcally unable to do some things that needed to be, things that had to wait for a more enlightened time. Some things that are, in fact, still waiting. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
According to the far right, he introduced Socialism into American politics and society and attempted to establish a leftist dictatorship through his efforts to pack the Supreme Court and replace conservative, Southern Democrats with Democrats more supportive of him and his non-emergency New Deal agenda. He is evil.
According to the far left, he collaborated with and sold out to the capitalists, especially on banking reform, when he should have taken advantage of their being down and then broken their backs in order to redistribute the wealth in American society to the left's satisfaction. He also failed to pass civil rights legislation, establish universal health care, or improve women's lives significantly. He is evil.
There you have it. |
Of course, I wanted to hear from wannago, but your response is delightfully satisfactory. It could be easily argued that anyone equally hated by the far ends of any spectrum is most likely on the right track.
FDR did some things that had to be done and was politcally unable to do some things that needed to be, things that had to wait for a more enlightened time. Some things that are, in fact, still waiting. |
FDR was overrated. You can lump me in the far correct wing on that score.
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| Aristotle: I'm down with Plato/Soctrates, but Aristotle pretty much invented the scientific method, so he's got my vote (even if he did put forth a lengthy and highly-dubious defense of "natural" slavery). For the record, no: I myself aspire to the be the philosopher/king of my generation - who doesn't? Losers. |
Oh, jesus, not the natural slave canard. IT IS DUBIOUS, THATS THE POINT. Go back and re-read Aristotle: you fail, sir. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Your source makes a nice, witty assertion, Kuros. But it fails to show who has and how they have overrated FDR. I assume you mean someone besides the far left or far right somehow overrates a man who won election to the presidency four times, held a pretty shaky coalition together during the Second World War, and, along with Eisenhower, most professional historians, of moderate politics, continue to admire, as far as twentieth-century American presidents go, in any case. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Your source makes a nice, witty assertion, Kuros. But it fails to show who has and how they have overrated FDR. I assume you mean someone besides the far left or far right somehow overrates a man who won election to the presidency four times, held a pretty shaky coalition together during the Second World War, and, along with Eisenhower, most professional historians, of moderate politics, continue to admire, as far as twentieth-century American presidents go, in any case. |
FDR is wrapped in a myth of saving our country from the Great Depression. No. He made it worse. He then is credited for lifting us out of the Great Depression with the war, but it was only economic policies drafted by Marshall and his advisors after his death that really cemented the US as a powerhouse.
He held our nation back economically, and made the Federal gov't the behemoth it is today.
The fact that people put him on par with Lincoln is quite sad. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Oh, the number of folks who admire FDR makes me shudder....... |
All right then. How awful was he? |
Oh, aside from dragging the U.S. into WW2 by provoking the Japanese so he could "fix" the American economy and his wonderful wizardry with socialism, thereby greatly expanding the federal government to help create the bloated monstrosity it is today, he was a great guy!
Averting a revolution, violent no less? Please...save the heroics for someone that deserves it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I do not know any historians who make a Great Man out of a mythical FDR, Kuros. His policies did in fact differ from Hoover's, and these policies, not to mention the psychological impact his radio speeches had on the nation, did in fact mitigate and begin to turn the political economy around.
Further, America in fact remained democratic and did not follow a Communist or Fascist pathway in response to the Depression. FDR's leadership had something to do with this, I think.
You seem to want to make a nonentity of FDR -- and that goes too far. In any case, I admire FDR. I do not insist that others must, too. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| ..not to mention the psychological impact his radio speeches had on the nation... |
This is one thing I will give FDR credit for. Those fireside chats were a good tonic for the nation. It was just too bad he was plotting the death of almost 300,000 Americans to fix the economy while he was giving a pep rally for the nation.
Look, I don't think FDR was evil....just wrong. Then again, I don't think W is evil either. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| They are neither good nor evil, Wannago. Just imperfect human leaders acting in good faith within the confines of their own historical context and knowledge, as almost -- but not quite -- everyone else on the planet has for the past fifty thousand years or so that Homo sapiens sapiens have roamed the continents. We would be much better off if we left heroes and villains to George Lucas and Scooby Doo & Friends... |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| ..not to mention the psychological impact his radio speeches had on the nation... |
This is one thing I will give FDR credit for. Those fireside chats were a good tonic for the nation. It was just too bad he was plotting the death of almost 300,000 Americans to fix the economy while he was giving a pep rally for the nation.
Look, I don't think FDR was evil....just wrong. Then again, I don't think W is evil either. |
Except that he wasn't wrong. He was right - Germany and Japan did indeed need to be put in check mate. Public opinion in America was wrong, and as a politician he manipulated events as he saw fit to do what he knew was right, despite how wrong the populace was. Despite the fact that fixing what was wrong meant that people would have to die.
The most inane slogan of left during the lead-up to the Iraq war was, War is Not the Answer. This is the same sentimental tripe that FDR had to contend with, but in his case, war wasn't just the answer, it was an imperative.
"War is not the answer." Shouldn't that depend on what the question is? FDR got the answer to WWII, as well many other issues, completely right. When unrestrained capitalism failed, his first priority was to help the people it had clearly failed most. In comparison to the amount of time it took to fail, his fix didn't take all that long at all. Had Germany and Japan not imposed on him the necessity of acting, it would have taken longer, but it still would have been peanuts as against the time it took for rapaciously unrestrained capitalists to run the world economy into the ground so that they could enjoy obscenely opulent lifestyles.
If you'd like a perfect analogy of the Western Capitalist excesses of 100 years ago, look no further than communist China today. It's just that they're coming at flagrant disregard for product safety at the expense of human lives from the opposite end of the spectrum. Where else does our horror at the dangers of lead-filled toys come from than a Socialist concern for our citizens?
Capitalist Democracy is the least worst system of ordering a society, but adding a measure of social justice to the mix makes it less bad. You can call that Socialism if you like, but if putting some regulation on greedy bastards equates to Socialism, then you can call me a Socilaist. It's not, after all, the rampant capitalist countries that enjoy the highest standard of living in the world. I believe that honor goes to the Socialist Scandinavian countries.
FDR did as much as was possible to raise us to that level, but was thwarted by hidebound ignoramouses who'd been convinced to vote against their own best interests by rich people who had only their own best interests in mind. How's that for a parallel of today's political landscape?
FDR got most of it right, and he would have gotten more of it right if the people who had most of the money in this country didn't also own most of the politicians and judges. Funny how little things change from century to century.
Yeah, I'll put FDR up against Lincoln any day of the week. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| ..not to mention the psychological impact his radio speeches had on the nation... |
This is one thing I will give FDR credit for. Those fireside chats were a good tonic for the nation. It was just too bad he was plotting the death of almost 300,000 Americans to fix the economy while he was giving a pep rally for the nation.
Look, I don't think FDR was evil....just wrong. Then again, I don't think W is evil either. |
Except that he wasn't wrong. He was right - Germany and Japan did indeed need to be put in check mate. Public opinion in America was wrong, and as a politician he manipulated events as he saw fit to do what he knew was right, despite how wrong the populace was. Despite the fact that fixing what was wrong meant that people would have to die.
The most inane slogan of left during the lead-up to the Iraq war was, War is Not the Answer. This is the same sentimental tripe that FDR had to contend with, but in his case, war wasn't just the answer, it was an imperative.
"War is not the answer." Shouldn't that depend on what the question is? FDR got the answer to WWII, as well many other issues, completely right. When unrestrained capitalism failed, his first priority was to help the people it had clearly failed most. In comparison to the amount of time it took to fail, his fix didn't take all that long at all. Had Germany and Japan not imposed on him the necessity of acting, it would have taken longer, but it still would have been peanuts as against the time it took for rapaciously unrestrained capitalists to run the world economy into the ground so that they could enjoy obscenely opulent lifestyles.
If you'd like a perfect analogy of the Western Capitalist excesses of 100 years ago, look no further than communist China today. It's just that they're coming at flagrant disregard for product safety at the expense of human lives from the opposite end of the spectrum. Where else does our horror at the dangers of lead-filled toys come from than a Socialist concern for our citizens?
Capitalist Democracy is the least worst system of ordering a society, but adding a measure of social justice to the mix makes it less bad. You can call that Socialism if you like, but if putting some regulation on greedy bastards equates to Socialism, then you can call me a Socilaist. It's not, after all, the rampant capitalist countries that enjoy the highest standard of living in the world. I believe that honor goes to the Socialist Scandinavian countries.
FDR did as much as was possible to raise us to that level, but was thwarted by hidebound ignoramouses who'd been convinced to vote against their own best interests by rich people who had only their own best interests in mind. How's that for a parallel of today's political landscape?
FDR got most of it right, and he would have gotten more of it right if the people who had most of the money in this country didn't also own most of the politicians and judges. Funny how little things change from century to century.
Yeah, I'll put FDR up against Lincoln any day of the week. |
Whatever it was, the New Deal was not a recovery program. It was most likely a power grab by King Franklin himself. If you read the history with some sort of clear head (unlike some who think FDR walked on water), you will see the real fear people had that FDR was headed toward a dictatorship (and I think their fears were correct) and the time had come to dismantle the dictator's "machinery." Then, SHAZAM!, along comes the attack on Pearl Harbor orchestrated (as even you admit) by FDR. What better way to keep in power when your New Deal wasn't saving the economy and yet you still want to play king? Don't talk to me about capitalists and opulent lifestyles. If you think his motivation was out of a genuine concern for his fellow human beings, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. His motivation was about his own power and legacy, and he didn't bat an eye at having 300,000 Americans killed to help him with that. Too bad for him he couldn't control his own health. Sucks to be human after all.
Having said that, my grandparents were very happy with King Franklin. They voted for him all 4 times. It was only in the 1970's, after really looking back at what happened then, that they waivered in their blind support of what he did. But, it was like an intervention in a cult; they felt guilty for saying anything against the man.
Seriously, you need to step away from the movies and into a history book that is written with some objectivity and not some starry-eyed romantic depiction of a man who, like a lot of our presidents, really wanted something for himself and used the office to get it. The New Deal did little to nothing (except raise taxes) for the country but the war did pull it out of the economic pit. If you want to make a case for the war to end the economic chaos, then at least you have a leg to stand on.
I'd say FDR has more in common with W than with Abe. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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The more the far right and the libertarian types froth at the mouth over FDR, the more convinced I am FDR did the right thing. We were a capitalist republic when the Great Depression struck and we were still one in April '45 when he died. Like Lincoln, he kept the country together during a time of the greatest crisis.
I'm an admirer of Hoover before he became president. What he did for Belgium during the war (the first war) was incredible. He failed as a president because of his blinkered philosophy. In a world of constant change, one mark of a genius is to know what to keep from the past and what to let go. FDR was a genius.
The past made too much of the Great Man theory of history, but the present goes too far in the other direction. FDR was a Great Man. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| The more the far right and the libertarian types froth at the mouth over FDR, the more convinced I am FDR did the right thing. |
Froth at the mouth? I said he was over-rated. I said he's not comparable to Lincoln.
And just for that mischaracterization, I'm going to remind you of FDR's Gitmo.
Do I think FDR was a bad President? Absolutely not. But I question the following assertions:
a) saved the US from socialism
b) was good for the US economy (unemployment rose in the late 30s)
c) was right to VASTLY expand the scope of the US gov't
I do think daskalos gave a stirring argument for why people should admire FDR; his conduct during the war was impressive. There were a great deal of people in the military and in his administration who opposed his Atlantic First strategy, but it was dead on. But I think his first two terms were failures, over all. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I do think daskalos gave a stirring argument for why people should admire FDR |
I agree with this part. If it makes you feel any better, I also rate Lincoln higher than FDR--by a whisker--and for the same reason. Both used the powers of the government to help the country and the people. I feel a little lonely when I say it, but I do mean it: Hurray for Big Government.
Re: frothing at the mouth. You will please note that I avoided naming names, but an objective observer would admit that it is common for the far right and libertarians to froth and foam at the mouth from time to time when size of government comes up. I have always suspected a Freudian thing is at play. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I feel a little lonely when I say it, but I do mean it: Hurray for Big Government. |
Many of us still support Big Govt. No need to feel lonely, even if we have seen Big Govt decline since the late-1970s/early-1980s.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Re: frothing at the mouth. You will please note that I avoided naming names, but an objective observer would admit that it is common for the far right and libertarians to froth and foam at the mouth... |
Read Anthony J. Badger's New Deal. Please keep in mind that the far left has frothed at the mouth at least as rabidly as the far right re: FDR. Badger's entire book is a point by point response to the left's allegation-driven discourse on FDR, the sell-out, and his smoke-and-mirrors show, the New Deal. They clearly assigned him the duty and then expected him to act like Lenin, seize power, and launch the proletarian dictatorship when capitalism was down. And they will never forgive him for failing to do so. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I feel a little lonely when I say it, but I do mean it: Hurray for Big Government. |
Many of us still support Big Govt. No need to feel lonely, even if we have seen Big Govt decline since the late-1970s/early-1980s.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Re: frothing at the mouth. You will please note that I avoided naming names, but an objective observer would admit that it is common for the far right and libertarians to froth and foam at the mouth... |
Read Anthony J. Badger's New Deal. Please keep in mind that the far left has frothed at the mouth at least as rabidly as the far right re: FDR. Badger's entire book is a point by point response to the left's allegation-driven discourse on FDR, the sell-out, and his smoke-and-mirrors show, the New Deal. They clearly assigned him the duty and then expected him to act like Lenin, seize power, and launch the proletarian dictatorship when capitalism was down. And they will never forgive him for failing to do so. |
He may have failed at it, but I think he tried to do so. The only problem was that not everyone in the federal government laid down and gave him a free pass to do whatever he wanted. Yes, admittedly I froth at the mouth about FDR. I really do shudder to think what would have happened had he been able to run for a 5th or even a 6th term. |
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