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The Stench of Occupation
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mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:40 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

I think most Israelis would be shocked to know the extent of it. It's pretty bloody foul.

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, and it's a disgrace that the nations who could make a difference are cowardly turning a blind eye to it, and being, in some cases, downright complicit.

Humanitarian impact of Israel's blockade of Gaza - 21 Jan 08

Egypt? You must mean Egypt..

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:06 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

If the occupying power is making it very difficult for food supplies and stuff to reach the populace, then it is certainly a violation of their human rights. This is not to say that I think Hamas is doing the Gazans any special favors, and they need to accept new elections and lose in parliament. I think the Palestinians need new elections.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:46 am Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

THEY voted Hamas in, knowing the consequences. If I jumped off a cliff is it gravity's fault that I got hurt? If you vote in a party that is created for the destruction of another country, then that could be seen as a hostile act and the other country has EVERY right to take steps against such an act.

If Canada voted in a party that had the destruction of the U.S.A as a main platform plank just what do you think would happen?

agentX

Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:05 am Post subject:

wannago wrote:

I'd say some of you who claim to have lived in the Bible Belt heard and saw what you wanted to hear and see. And, if they do support Israel, it is because the U.S. Government supports Israel, not for some Armageddon, end-of-times gibberish.

Let me introduce someone to you; John Hagee, the Religious Wrong leader who McCain begged for months to endorse him.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/5/2/92739/11686

Quote:

On September 18, 2006 John Hagee appeared on the WHYY radio show "Fresh Air", and the recorded show segment [PDF of transcript] began with an audio excerpt from one of Hagee's recorded sermons in which Hagee enthusiastically declares that envisioned chain of events he expects will follow a US and/or Israeli attack on Iran, which include "Ezekiel's War" and the "Rapture", would be "thrilling". Hagee proceeded to state, in the interview with Terry Gross, that during "Ezekiel's War" that God will cause a Russian nuclear strike on America that will destroy the East and West coasts.

Quote:

In his book "Jerusalem Countdown", pastor Hagee states that historical anti-Semitism, culminating in the Holocaust, resulted from God's curse upon Jews, as a people, because of the ancient Jewish worship of idols described in the Bible. In the book Hagee also writes that Hitler and the Nazis were acting as divine agents, to drive European Jews towards Palestine where, per Hagee's view, God appears to demand be their only residence on Earth and where, according to Hagee's apocalyptic theological views, those Jewish settlers will be most killed in the conflict Hagee militates for by advocating an attack on Iran.

So, what sort of people support a loon like this?
Right-wing Republicans from...the Bible Belt.

And you all on this board thought Rev. Wright was bad.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

Is that so. Then when Israelis vote in a government that has the destruction of another people's homeland as part of their policy, should they similar be punished?

Anyway, the destruction of Israel was not the 'main platform plank' of Hamas. Hamas got in on an anti-corruption ticket, after Palestinians had lost all patience with a corrupt Fatah that had brought them absolutely nothing while feathering their own nests. It's clear why many (including secular and Christian Palestinians) felt it was time to try an alternative to the quisling PLO.

One of the major problems with Hamas is that they were actually interested in putting away their arms in favour of diplomacy and were quite serious in wanting to broker a real peace deal, which was just way too inconvenient when you need your big bogeymen to justify your continued repression of a people so that you can quietly continue to bulldoze down their homes and create more and more 'lebenstraum' on their confiscated land.

But anyway, if the idea of the siege was to counter Hamas, it seems to be doing the opposite - making life so difficult for the people of Gaza they are increasingly resorting to joining Hamas.

Quote:

And finally, there is the total exclusion and continued Israeli international isolation of an increasingly devastated and impoverished Gaza and its de facto rulers, Hamas. You don't have to be an admirer of Hamas � much less of its murderous attacks on Israeli civilians over the past decade � to see, first, that it is not simply going to disappear and secondly, as diplomats increasingly agree in semi-public, the isolation strategy has simply not worked. Last week in Gaza, a prominent businessman told me that he had to lay off all but 15 of his previous 200-strong workforce because of the bar on imports and exports. He estimated that perhaps 80 per cent had since joined Hamas-affiliated organisations � ranging from its internal police force to the militant Izzedine al Qassam brigades. If anything, the blockade has cheapened the price in wages Hamas has to pay for its recruits.

Israel: From independence to intifada

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

Is that so. Then when Israelis vote in a government that has the destruction of another people's homeland as part of their policy, should they similar be punished?

They certainly should. However it is their land, not the "Palestinians"... which is a made up term FYI.

Anyway, the destruction of Israel was not the 'main platform plank' of Hamas. Hamas got in on an anti-corruption ticket, after Palestinians had lost all patience with a corrupt Fatah that had brought them absolutely nothing while feathering their own nests. It's clear why many (including secular and Christian Palestinians) felt it was time to try an alternative to the quisling PLO.

The destruction of Israel is still in the charter of Hamas

One of the major problems with Hamas is that they were actually interested in putting away their arms in favour of diplomacy and were quite serious in wanting to broker a real peace deal,

If they had been really serious they would have removed that clause from their charter. That would have shown seriousness. Anything else is just posturing. And that is untrue anyway. The Quartet (The U.S, the U.N, the E.U and Russia) told Hamas that it had to make three commitments in order to receive aid and be recognized.

1) It had to renounce violence

2) It had to recognize Israel

3) It had to recognize all past agreements

If Hamas were really interested in peace...it could have done so. Instead it offered a truce thus showing it was merely playing for time and had no intention of making real peace with Israel.

which was just way too inconvenient when you need your big bogeymen to justify your continued repression of a people so that you can quietly continue to bulldoze down their homes and create more and more 'lebenstraum' on their confiscated land.

But anyway, if the idea of the siege was to counter Hamas, it seems to be doing the opposite - making life so difficult for the people of Gaza they are increasingly resorting to joining Hamas.

Quote:

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

But the whole siege of Gaza thing is a crime against humanity, ]

Actually it's not. The whole siege of Gaza thing is about not tolerating terrorists.

What you said is not quite true. Hamas actually did not listen to the Palestinian people. Many of the Palestinians supported negotiations with Israel, and were hoping that that would continue. They voted for Hamas, because they were fed up with the lack of transparency in the PA, but then found Hamas to be worse than the PA. They did not vote for Hamas, because they wanted Israel to be destroyed, and Hamas ignored the polls, and the Palestinians blame Hamas for the coup d'etat. Anyway, the elections were the great idea of George Bush. I could have told him Hamas would have been elected.

blade

Joined: 30 Jun 2007

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:53 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

If they had been really serious they would have removed that clause from their charter. That would have shown seriousness. Anything else is just posturing. And that is untrue anyway. The Quartet (The U.S, the U.N, the E.U and Russia) told Hamas that it had to make three commitments in order to receive aid and be recognized.

1) It had to renounce violence

Quote:

2) It had to recognize Israel

Israel doesn't even recognize itself and until it decides where it's own borders begin and end then I don't see why the Palestinians should be expected to recognize it.

Quote:

3) It had to recognize all past agreements

Quote:

If Hamas were really interested in peace...it could have done so. Instead it offered a truce thus showing it was merely playing for time and had no intention of making real peace with Israel.

I like how some people expect Hamas to agree to everything yet happily turning a blind eye to all of Israel's many wrongs and then trying to blame everything on the Palestinians as if they were the ones occupying Israel and running the country like a massive outdoor prison.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

I didn't want to answer this thread cause the original article was almost good. and Israel ought not to allow sewage into the Palestinian areas.

But now there is so much disinformatioin on this thread that it needs to be answered.

[quote="blade"

Quote:

Israel infact accepted Bill Clinton' peace plan.

Before 1967 Israel did not occupy the West Bank or Gaza yet it was still under threat. What was the problem then?

UN 242 calls for land for peace not withdrawal for nothing. Check it.

Why ought Israel withdraw for nothing in return?

Quote:

Israel doesn't even recognize itself and until it decides where it's own borders begin and end then I don't see why the Palestinians should be expected to recognize it.

You mean Israel ought to withdraw without the Palestinian side saying they won't attack if Israel withdraws. Why is that okay?

Quote:

Both sides reneged on agreements just about all of them. Why do you think it is ok for one side to do so but not the other side?

WTF
[quote]

Quote:

It is a war zone. Israel doen't behave worse than other mideast regimes during war time. In fact there is nothing to show that Israel behaves worse than most regimes during war time.

I tell you what . Hamas gives up their war and Israel withdraws.

What do you say?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject:

blade wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Israel is the occupying party and thus is the one that needs to renounce violence first and foremost. Once the Palestinians start feeling that Israel is prepared to give some ground not just making the occasional cosmetic changes to its occupation then I'm sure the average Palestinian will start believing that their is a alternative to their current mode of defense.

Israel was not the one told by the U.N, the E.U. America and Russia that it had to renounce violence. They actually accepted the peace plan proposed by Bill Clinton. The Palestinians rejected it thus showing that they didn't want peace. You can talk until you are blue in the face but it will not change this fact.

Quote:

2) It had to recognize Israel

Israel doesn't even recognize itself and until it decides where it's own borders begin and end then I don't see why the Palestinians should be expected to recognize it.

What are you going on about here? Israel is a recognized and accepted state.

Quote:

3) It had to recognize all past agreements

How come Israel seems to be exempt from previous agreements yet the Palestinians must abide by every last one. Is this fair? I don't think so, do you? Israel has reneged on virtually every agreement that it has ever made with the Palestinians and yet you still expect the Palestinians bend over and take it up the ass. WTF?

Actually it was the Palestinians who reneged on virtually every agreement. You might want to read some history. Anyway if they recognize the past agreements then Israel will have to do so as well.

Quote:

If Hamas were really interested in peace...it could have done so. Instead it offered a truce thus showing it was merely playing for time and had no intention of making real peace with Israel.

Hamas was the one told to agree by the U.N, the E.U, America and Russia. So you are saying that all these countries are wrong and Hamas and you are right? Rolling Eyes

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:01 am Post subject:

I just have one question. Why doesn't Hamas want a Palestinian state in Gaza?

Biblethumper

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:48 am Post subject:

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river the river Euphrates. [And concerning the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael:] And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:57 am Post subject:

Quote:

One of the major problems with Hamas is that they were actually interested in putting away their arms in favour of diplomacy and were quite serious in wanting to broker a real peace deal, which was just way too inconvenient when you need your big bogeymen to justify your continued repression of a people so that you can quietly continue to bulldoze down their homes and create more and more 'lebenstraum' on their confiscated land.

Were they interested in putting away their arms before or after the destruction of Israel? Actually I read that they openly called for Israel's desctruction during their campaign. Maybe they forgot about the section of their charter where they call for Israel's destruction because they were too busy being used by the Joos who according to article 32 of their charter are trying to take over the world.

manlyboy

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:12 am Post subject:

Oh, for God's sake. They don't want peace. They don't want harmony. They don't want to just be left alone. What Palestinians want above all else is to murder Jews.

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