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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Where was the logic again? |
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RobbJK9
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Location: Seoul, KR
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Have those individuals apologized to China for starting the war in the first place? |
Getting the Japanese to apologize for anything they did during the Empire, or even getting them to teach their kids the truth about that time, is like pulling teeth.
Asian countries and their "face". Bleh. |
I don't know about any other western countries, but America has never apologized to anyone about what they did to the Native Americans OR slaves, although they have apologized to Japan for the WWII internment camps. Turkey has also never apologized for or recognized the Armenian Genocide which was cited as one of the main reasons Hitler followed through with the Holocaust. "Who, after all, today speaks of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
I don't think it's an Asia/Western thing. I think everyone, everywhere has a hard time admitting when they did something wrong, which I think, and I hope, makes this man's apology pretty special to some people who may still need healing--regardless of whether he should feel apologetic or not. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| RobbJK9 wrote: |
I don't know about any other western countries, but America has never apologized to anyone about what they did to the Native Americans OR slaves, although they have apologized to Japan for the WWII internment camps. |
And just exactly who would America apologize to for those two things? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Have any brits apologized for bombing Berlin? Do they need to? If you're attacked and faced with an all out war by the aggressor, I don't think you need to apologize for fighting back. To suggest anything else is stupid. I'll tell you what Julius. When your nation is attacked and you strap yourself into a plane and fight an enemy you know will spare you not a single mercy should you be captured, I'll THEN listen to your opinions on who should be personally apologizing for what.
What a cracker. |
Agreed. Individual combatants and military services apologizing for wars or individual campaigns, as if their actions represented individual vs. individual choices and actions ("today I think I might employ nuclear weapons against the people in Hiroshima," for example) is childish and stupid. Sounds like the far left, again. That is simply not how human societies and war work in world affairs. |
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KirbyMagnus
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| RobbJK9 wrote: |
| stillnotking wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Have those individuals apologized to China for starting the war in the first place? |
Getting the Japanese to apologize for anything they did during the Empire, or even getting them to teach their kids the truth about that time, is like pulling teeth.
Asian countries and their "face". Bleh. |
I don't know about any other western countries, but America has never apologized to anyone about what they did to the Native Americans OR slaves, although they have apologized to Japan for the WWII internment camps. Turkey has also never apologized for or recognized the Armenian Genocide which was cited as one of the main reasons Hitler followed through with the Holocaust. "Who, after all, today speaks of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
I don't think it's an Asia/Western thing. I think everyone, everywhere has a hard time admitting when they did something wrong, which I think, and I hope, makes this man's apology pretty special to some people who may still need healing--regardless of whether he should feel apologetic or not. |
Many of the people who are alive today had no involvement in these actions. If we really want to show we are sorry for these past actions then we should endeavour to prevent them from ever happening again. That is how we atone for the mistakes of our ancestors.
The best healer is time. Many people have drawn a line under the actions that occured in WW2. There were crimes on both sides, it was a dark time in human history. It is best that we move on. Apologies are a handsome gesture but they are not necessary. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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One has to love all of these self-righteous calls for people allegedly guilty-through-descent (children of allegedly evil ancestors as a class) or guilty-by-association (as current citizens of a nation-state involved in past "wrongs") to apologize for things they had nothing to do with.
Leftist hand-wringing and "complicity"-obsession at its finest. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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The Germans always were "wrong-thinkers". They could never understand why the British never would reciprocate their admiration for them.
The Germans recognised the Brits as equals. The Poles, especially from Warsaw, the Dutch in Rotterdam and the French refugees clogging the roads were and are, not.....seen as equals and no apology need ever be forthcoming.
This pilot is an unrehabilitated nazi, he still doesn't get it. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Re: No Regrets... |
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| mises wrote: |
| Tjames426 wrote: |
| More Japanese would of died if an invasion would of happened. |
If our criteria for "when bomb" is the number of dead vs. not bombing, then we might be able to make a good claim that the first atomic bomb dropped was justified in that it killed less than otherwise would have been killed.
The second bomb cannot be defended, in my opinion. |
I used to think that but they say they needed to convince the Japanese government they were capable of repeated attacks, and the offer to surrender came only after the second attack. |
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KirbyMagnus
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Re: No Regrets... |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Tjames426 wrote: |
| More Japanese would of died if an invasion would of happened. |
If our criteria for "when bomb" is the number of dead vs. not bombing, then we might be able to make a good claim that the first atomic bomb dropped was justified in that it killed less than otherwise would have been killed.
The second bomb cannot be defended, in my opinion. |
I used to think that but they say they needed to convince the Japanese government they were capable of repeated attacks, and the offer to surrender came only after the second attack. |
The real purpose of the bomb was to intimidate the Russians. It was designed to end the war in Asia and prevent another war in Europe. A full scale invasion of Japan would have resulted in the devestation of more than just two cities.
If you look at how much America has done to help Japan since the war I think they have more than atoned for their actions. Incredible as well that the Japanese and Americans are now friends and allies despite the use of nuclear weapons. That shows how past indiscretions can be forgotten and replaced by friendship. The important thing is to draw a line under such events and understand that in war these things happen. This is an important step on the path to peace.
Please note that I am a liberal. But I do not judge the past by my standards. It was a different world and different rules applied. I may hear my grandparents say the occasional racist remark. But both my Grandfathers fought a war against facism. Though they may say racist things, in practical terms they have done more to fight prejudice and racism than I ever have. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| RobbJK9 wrote: |
| I think everyone, everywhere has a hard time admitting when they did something wrong, which I think, and I hope, makes this man's apology pretty special to some people who may still need healing--regardless of whether he should feel apologetic or not. |
Someone gets it!! 
Well done, sir. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| KirbyMagnus wrote: |
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| KirbyMagnus wrote: |
| But what I meant was that the individual front line soldiers should not be handed any blame. |
If a gang puts a gun in your hand and tells you to kill a guy in front of you, and then points out behind the gang is your family in bondage and the gang will kill every last one of them unless you follow orders, what is the logical choice? |
Start shooting the gang members. Interrogate the survivors. |
They outnumber you. They have guns. End result. You maybe kill a couple of them. The guy in front of you gets killed, you get killed, and your family gets killed.
So instead of one guy dying, a lot of people end up dying.
You must follow orders. You have no choice. It is war. |
MM2s analogy was a better fit for terroism, not war. My response was very close to goverment policy. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Even after the second bomb was dropped it took quite a bit of Jap shillyshallying before they finally hauled out the white flag. It should be borne in mind that they weren't the type to fling hands in the air and often had to be killed to a man. They even had kamikazi pilots.
They waged such a vile cruel war, that there can be no room for regret. |
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