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Has Islam killed 270 million people?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hale wrote:
For the reasons given above. The Bible and Koran are infallible books that explicitly instruct adherents to kill. If an infallible book tells you to kill, you'd better get right at it, non? No such thing exists in anti-theism; indeed, these books are an excellent reason for it.


You only say that (about the Bible) because you have reading comprehension issues. Seriously.

Besides, killing is not always a bad thing. It is an appropriate measure under certain circumstances.

As I've said, your attacks on Christianity are tripe, just like RTeacher's attacks on atheism.
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newton kabiddles



Joined: 31 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Atheism is useful to communism, since the latter seeks to establish itself as the sole authority on all things, which is impossible if you have competition, any competition, including religion."

Doesn't the communist society seek to NOT have a sole authority on all things? Isn't that the dilemma? Not having religion makes sense, no? To have no authority.
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genezorm



Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: Mokpo

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyone know the death toll for the good ol' christians?

maybe they don't get their kill on like they did back in the day, but i think it might be a pretty high number as well
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Justin Hale



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Justin Hale wrote:
For the reasons given above. The Bible and Koran are infallible books that explicitly instruct adherents to kill. If an infallible book tells you to kill, you'd better get right at it, non? No such thing exists in anti-theism; indeed, these books are an excellent reason for it.


You only say that (about the Bible) because you have reading comprehension issues. Seriously.


Oh yeah?

Kuros wrote:
Besides, killing is not always a bad thing. It is an appropriate measure under certain circumstances.


Absolutely. Take for instance "Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Thousands of innocent women suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. And there's "22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed....thus the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. And "31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people"....so working on Sunday isn't kosher. You'll be killed for trying to earn a few extra bucks to feed your family. Anyway, yes, you're right, sometimes killing is entirely appropriate. Got a disobedient kid? Stone him ir her to death in the center of town. That's true justice eh?

I confess I'd take the law into my own hands and kill if I saw people stoning a child or burning a woman. What'd be really beneficial would be to go back in time and kill those responsible for this hideous book, since it's perfectly clear from the example of the stoning a child rule (not only is killing a child just wrong and heinous enough, but stoning, torture of a child is the worst possible crime alongside raping a prepubesent girl a la Muhammad) that the Bible is a product of inferior subhumans and that is all that can be said about it. That is the sole appropriate summary.

Kuros wrote:
As I've said, your attacks on Christianity are tripe, just like RTeacher's attacks on atheism.


Go whine about it to a priest, buddy. He's prolly only buggered one or two boys in his life - nothing too serious.

newton kabiddles wrote:
"Atheism is useful to communism, since the latter seeks to establish itself as the sole authority on all things, which is impossible if you have competition, any competition, including religion."

Doesn't the communist society seek to NOT have a sole authority on all things? Isn't that the dilemma? Not having religion makes sense, no? To have no authority.


Communism is a euphemism for everything being owned and controlled by the government.
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam Harris talks about Islam in his book 'The End of Faith'. He makes the point that there is little distinction between 'moderate' Muslims and 'radical' or 'extremist' Muslims - the latter being a misnomer.
Even in it's so called 'moderate' form, the Koran reads like an instruction manual for a religious war, with the ultimate aim being absolute cultural and religious hegemony.
Mind you, I'm reading 'Letter to a Christian Nation', and he is equally scathing about Christianity and it's own 'good book'.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin,

That's your argument? You cherry-pick some obsolete and never observed passages from the Bible in the hope that it will refute the Ten Commandments?

Here are the Ten Commandents, which are the primary and overriding law of the Old Testament.

Quote:
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'


Here's the New Testament interpretation:

Quote:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).
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Justin Hale



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Obsolete" and "never observed"....these people need to get with the program. The Bible is a manifestation of the Divine and must, presumably, be flawless. Are you suggesting we dispense with certain parts of the Bible but keep belief in the nice bits? And you have the shameless boldness, in your same sentence, to accuse me of cherry-picking??

Do you know what's truly pathetic about you, Kuros? You've claimed previously that you're not a Christian, not a theist, but an agnostic. It's a total lie and a pitiable one, because faced with the accusation of being the raving theist and Christian and apologist that you are, you deny it, are probably ashamed of it. Just admit that you're a Christian and mom and dad are Christians and you had a Christian upbringing.

Sorry for the ad hominem but I just want you to be honest.

Anyway, to business.....

Kuros wrote:
Here are the Ten Commandents, which are the primary and overriding law of the Old Testament


The 10 Commandments were delivered during the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land (which there's no evidence for at all) which involved the full destruction of other tribes (seeing genocide, theft of land and ethnic cleansing - thus so much for Commandment #6. THAT'S how freaking stupid the biblical writers were). The 10 Commandments are basic, highly simplistic ethics innate to us in a book that is otherwise a sea of barbarism.

Kuros wrote:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).


There's a lot of butt-kicking in the NT too. Not long after the above passage, Jesus says the flood that gave rise to Noah's Ark will return when he returns, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth apparently, Jesus tells us his plans for those that he dislikes, (they will be cast into an "everlasting fire"), and the damned will be tormented forever. In the very same gospel, Matthew, Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of Hell because they didn't care for his preaching (11:20-24). Jesus was no logician. He says love thy neighbor as thyself but he has the superman whose ethics are innate and nothing to do with Jesus sent to Hell. He didn't know what a light year is either (all the stars in the sky come crashing down? It'll take most of them billions of years to do so, buddy). Jesus should have been butchered at birth, assuming he existed at all. Exodus is total fiction, so why not Jesus?

Christianity is 100% wretchedly bad, highly offensive, unpleasant, and morally despicable. But I thought the thread was about Islam? I realize threads drift from the point all the time, but surely it's inappropriate to have a discussion on the Bible here?
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is basically about hate and distortion - anything related to those would be right on-topic ... Laughing
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hale wrote:
"Obsolete" and "never observed"....these people need to get with the program. The Bible is a manifestation of the Divine and must, presumably, be flawless.


Nice theory but not based on the simple fact that not all denominations of Christianity are literalists or inerrantists.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin Hale wrote:
"Obsolete" and "never observed"....these people need to get with the program. The Bible is a manifestation of the Divine and must, presumably, be flawless.


I think, honestly, that theology is a bit out of your league. Ironically, your worldview is too Manichean for it.

Quote:
Do you know what's truly pathetic about you, Kuros? You've claimed previously that you're not a Christian, not a theist, but an agnostic. It's a total lie and a pitiable one, because faced with the accusation of being the raving theist and Christian and apologist that you are, you deny it, are probably ashamed of it. Just admit that you're a Christian and mom and dad are Christians and you had a Christian upbringing.


I had a Catholic upbringing. And in high school I was a rabid atheist, just like you are now. But then I went to this college, and studied the great books. Yes, the Bible was one of them.

Quote:
Sorry for the ad hominem but I just want you to be honest.


I'm an agnostic. I do not believe in the revealed miracles of the Bible.

Anyway, to business.....

Quote:
Kuros wrote:
Here are the Ten Commandents, which are the primary and overriding law of the Old Testament


The 10 Commandments were delivered during the Exodus of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land (which there's no evidence for at all) which involved the full destruction of other tribes (seeing genocide, theft of land and ethnic cleansing - thus so much for Commandment #6. THAT'S how freaking stupid the biblical writers were). The 10 Commandments are basic, highly simplistic ethics innate to us in a book that is otherwise a sea of barbarism.


It is a very simplistic code of laws for our time. But for its time . . . . At any rate, you'll notice the Jews got beyond its simplicities. You, however, have not.

Quote:
Kuros wrote:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).


There's a lot of butt-kicking in the NT too. Not long after the above passage, Jesus says the flood that gave rise to Noah's Ark will return when he returns, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth apparently, Jesus tells us his plans for those that he dislikes, (they will be cast into an "everlasting fire"), and the damned will be tormented forever. In the very same gospel, Matthew, Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of Hell because they didn't care for his preaching (11:20-24). Jesus was no logician. He says love thy neighbor as thyself but he has the superman whose ethics are innate and nothing to do with Jesus sent to Hell. He didn't know what a light year is either (all the stars in the sky come crashing down? It'll take most of them billions of years to do so, buddy). Jesus should have been butchered at birth, assuming he existed at all. Exodus is total fiction, so why not Jesus?

Christianity is 100% wretchedly bad, highly offensive, unpleasant, and morally despicable. But I thought the thread was about Islam? I realize threads drift from the point all the time, but surely it's inappropriate to have a discussion on the Bible here?
[/quote]

Dude, you lump all the religions together frequently, and now want to separate the Bible from the Qu'ran? Why don't you lead us off. Why is the Qu'ran different from the Bible? I thought, according to you, that each was pile of homocidal drek claiming to be the word of God.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
I am going to need links, at this point.


Sorry, no links. History books aren't at hand either.
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Justin Hale



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Justin Hale wrote:
"Obsolete" and "never observed"....these people need to get with the program. The Bible is a manifestation of the Divine and must, presumably, be flawless.


I think, honestly, that theology is a bit out of your league. Ironically, your worldview is too Manichean for it.


Theology is out of your league, buddy, since you cherry pick the nice bits of the Bible and ignore the bad. How can you even cite the 10 commandments straight-headed and straight-faced? It took place in Exodus, arguably the most offensive, genocidal fiction ever written.

Kuros wrote:
I'm an agnostic. I do not believe in the revealed miracles of the Bible.


You are lying. You had a Catholic upbringing - I sympathize - and also studied your beloved book of hate at university and also constantly apologize for religion on here....and you expect me to believe you're an agnostic?? Only in Kentucky.

Kuros wrote:
It is a very simplistic code of laws for our time. But for its time . . . . At any rate, you'll notice the Jews got beyond its simplicities. You, however, have not.


It was simplistic and totally unnecessary for its time.

Kuros wrote:
Dude, you lump all the religions together frequently, and now want to separate the Bible from the Qu'ran? Why don't you lead us off. Why is the Qu'ran different from the Bible? I thought, according to you, that each was pile of homocidal drek claiming to be the word of God.


Christianity and Islam are idenitical in their celestial totalitarianism. I addressed the Bible specifically for absolutely no other reason than the fact that you brought it up. I'd much rather discuss Muslims and their mass genocide, if you don't mind.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the concept of "celestial totalitarianism" as a bad thing is due to trying to understand it in terms of material duality and relativity.

Although we are presently conditioned to identify with our particular bodily designations (eg: Canadian, African, man, woman, Hindu, Christian, dog, cat ...) which are all ephemeral parts of this world, we also have an essential absolute nature which is eternally part of the Absolute Person or God.

All our propensities (eg: loving, fighting, enjoying) exist in the Absolute Person in their pure form.

There's perfect harmony on the Absolute plane, and when we get there by reviving our God consciousness, we become qualitatively equal with God and enjoy perfectly harmonious, blissful relationships, with no distinction between higher and lower or master and servant.

There is no fighting in the spiritual world, so God periodically incarnates in the material world and fights demons (or devotees empowered to play the role of demons) protccts devotees, and restablishes religious principles.

Even being directly killed by God is not a bad thing, since one becomes immediately liberated to the spiritual plane of eternal happiness.

A totalitarian system is bad only when the dictator is not perfect.

But if totality amounts to there being One Absolute Person - of which we are all parts - then there's nothing wrong with that perfect and Complete Whole person acting as the Supreme Autocrat of all its part-and-parcel individual souls.

Moreover, we always have the free will to either accept or reject God - which is why the material universes were created in the first place.

In order to try to enjoy illusory independence from God, we had to come under the material bodily conception of life.

Only when we realize that we are all spirit-souls related to the one Supreme Soul can we experience perfect peace and harmony.

This conversation between Bhaktivedanta Swami and Irish poet Desmond O'Grady elaborates on the real formula for peace:
http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/lecture23.html
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patongpanda



Joined: 06 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did you get these ten commandments from? There are three references to the commandments in the Old Testament and they aren't the same as yours. (There are 25 instructions in total).

Check out Exodus 20, Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 5.

Kuros wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'


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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patongpanda wrote:
Where did you get these ten commandments from? There are three references to the commandments in the Old Testament and they aren't the same as yours. (There are 25 instructions in total).

Check out Exodus 20, Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 5.


You're right, they are abbreviated. I don't have my OT with me; its in Kentucky.

I googled the Ten Commandments and picked the first site that came up and posted it anyway. Is this list more accurate?
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