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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: American military hypocrisy...where does it end? |
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As of today, an American sniper was removed from duty in Iraq and his superiors were forced to conduct a ceremony of forgiveness toa group of prominent Sunni tribesmen so they don't destroy the fragile alliance they have with them.
reference article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080518/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Awhile back, there were several incidents at Guantanamo Bay where the Quran was desecrated by American soldiers as a way to humble the prisoners. News got out about it and the US went a quick PR defensive to tell their Arab/ Muslim allies that it was not true (but they were) and that any 'mishandling' of the Islamic holy book was the actions of a single person and not of the command structure.
Reference article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7995960/
Lets also mention the countless crimes occurring in Japan, Germany and Korea where soldiers have abused and hurt (sometimes killed) locals.
What bothers me is that everytime an incident happens, the senior leadership is always quick to blame the individuals for the crimes that are committed by the soldiers under their command.......
As I was (am) a soldier, I would like to say that is utter bullshit!!!
Many times, it is the senior leadership, the NCOs and the Officers, that foster the mentality of ignorance and arrogance thats rampant throughout the American Armed Forces.
First of all, most soldiers are just out of high school (if they graduated at all), leaving home and most likely their local community for the first time and places in a country where they have no idea about the customs and traidtions, accept for what their superiors tell them.
Am I wrong or is it their leadership's responsibility to instruct them of the customs and traditions of the places they are being assigned.
I mean, you almost never hear of problems arising from the conduct of other foreign troops (if you do, please post them here as part of the discussion).
My question; what makes American soldiers act so uneducated and so ignorant?
Is the problem that American society as a whole is ignorant and mostly uneducated or is it that the American military wants to dumb-down its lower ranks and any evidence of intelligence or conscience shown by lower-ranking soldiers is considered ridiculous by the senior leadership?
I feel that NCOs and Officers, at all levels all the way to HQDA and HQDOD, are responsible for the conduct of the soldiers on the ground...
But at the same time, Americans are generally uneducated buffoons who are clueless about the world around them. So, who is to blame? The society where the soldiers come from or the leaders responsible for their welfare? |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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There is a saying. It's called, shit don't roll uphill.
I don't think the problem is systematic. You have millions of US armed service men and women across the globe. Of course you are going to have a few bad apples.
You show me in the handbook or in any general order that tells soldiers it's OK to do these things then yes, I will agree with you that there is hypocrisy.
Until then, I guess I'm just an uneducated buffoon who is clueless to the world.
The US military builds schools, infrastructure, and provides food/water/shelter for their enemies. That seems very hypocritic for an institution whose sole purpose is to kill and destroy their enemy. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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It's not in the manuals given to the lower ranks or even to the mid-ranked NCOs.....alot of stereo typing, judgements and others is sent to those in command in the form of inter-office memos, which are past down to those under them.
And don't feel bad, I'm also sad to say I'm an American......the only cool thing I can say about being an American is that I was blessed with a US passport, though I prefer to have a Canadian passport or even a French passport because no one hates Canadians or the French as much as people hate Americans..........and the sad choice we chose to represent our interests are the shaved, uneducated and seemingly uncontrolable baboons and orangutans we put in uniforms and pass off as human soldiers, when all they're good for is being self-propelled sandbags......simple as that..... |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I mean, you almost never hear of problems arising from the conduct of other foreign troops (if you do, please post them here as part of the discussion). |
I don't think this is true. American troops are probably the best behaved out there. It's just their numbers are so high. Anyway, what do you mean 'foreign troops', do you mean UN, NATO and coalition forces or can we include Russian, Chinese, Taliban, insurgents and Janjaweed?
American, British, UN,NATO, and coalition forces are all held to higher moral standard than the forces they often fight. So they should always be held accountable for any crimes. British forces haven't behaved squeaky clean in Iraq either.
If people are worried that US troops are on mass uneducated unemployable criminals, well apart from letting them teach English here I'd suggest bringing back conscription so the rich and educated have to do their bit too. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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I support the draft and many in congress pondered (for a very short tim) whether to re-enact the draft, surprisingly with endorsement from the Democratic Party. But many civic and human rights groups claim that the main victims of the draft would be the 12+ million illegals in the country who would see the draft as a path to citizenship, at least until they come back to the US in bits and peices.
Do you honestly think a Yalie or a Harvardite would squander their education and their future by joining the military? All through history, there has always been exemptions for those fortunate and rich enough to stay away from harm's way.
Again, who's left?
The poor, destitude, uneducated, ignorant, some-what criminal types that can't fit into their community. At least the lucky ones that do come back to the states in bodybags have the unique opportunity to be buried in a nicely kept grave plot- though it might be miles away from their families.
I think the smart ones are the ones who do something with their lives after they get out and they don't dwell on the previous 4 years in the Army as some of the best years of their lives.....
As for the army being full of nice, intelligent and courtious people and the bad ones are in the minority? HA!
Actually, it is the other way around, especially because of the war.
Since 2005, alot of the good NCOs and officers have left the military because of all the political bullshit, leaving the jobs open to the mindless idiots who don't know their head from their own asshole.........and being lead by a redneck monkey from Texas, the center of ignorance in the US where many Americans flock to if they want to be mindlessbuttfucking, roughriding cowboys.... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
Do you honestly think a Yalie or a Harvardite would squander their education and their future by joining the military?
Again, who's left?
The poor, destitude, uneducated, ignorant, some-what criminal types that can't fit into their community. |
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/False_Dichotomy |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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The US has more to lose (b/c of the War on Terror) when it comes to bad-Islamic-world-PR, ergo our military ought to hold itself to an incredibly stringent standard if we're serious about this 'hearts and minds' trope.
And while we're at it, let's win the War on Jealousy, and the War on Bullshit, and maybe the War on Apathy. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
Do you honestly think a Yalie or a Harvardite would squander their education and their future by joining the military?
Again, who's left?
The poor, destitude, uneducated, ignorant, some-what criminal types that can't fit into their community. |
Actually, the aristocracy has always served in the military. It was almost a rite of passage. Officers in the military are college educated. Many from wealthy backgrounds.
Needless to say, realistically, all men are not equal. A surgical doctor who can save thousands of lives in his lifetime is more important than a high school dropout who can't read but can finish Halo under 6 hours. |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
I support the draft and many in congress pondered (for a very short tim) whether to re-enact the draft, surprisingly with endorsement from the Democratic Party. But many civic and human rights groups claim that the main victims of the draft would be the 12+ million illegals in the country who would see the draft as a path to citizenship, at least until they come back to the US in bits and peices.
Do you honestly think a Yalie or a Harvardite would squander their education and their future by joining the military? All through history, there has always been exemptions for those fortunate and rich enough to stay away from harm's way.
Again, who's left?
The poor, destitude, uneducated, ignorant, some-what criminal types that can't fit into their community. At least the lucky ones that do come back to the states in bodybags have the unique opportunity to be buried in a nicely kept grave plot- though it might be miles away from their families.
I think the smart ones are the ones who do something with their lives after they get out and they don't dwell on the previous 4 years in the Army as some of the best years of their lives.....
As for the army being full of nice, intelligent and courtious people and the bad ones are in the minority? HA!
Actually, it is the other way around, especially because of the war.
Since 2005, alot of the good NCOs and officers have left the military because of all the political bullshit, leaving the jobs open to the mindless idiots who don't know their head from their own asshole.........and being lead by a redneck monkey from Texas, the center of ignorance in the US where many Americans flock to if they want to be mindlessbuttfucking, roughriding cowboys.... |
I'm pretty sure illegals don't register for the selectice service...so no draft.
As for "Mindless NCOs and Officers"....do you know what it takes to become one of those? A hell of a lot higher qualifications(physical and mental) than any job you'll apply for.
Every military person I've met, was a thousand times more intelligent, kind, and considerate than you based off your post. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Officers in the military are college educated. |
Not always. Some are promoted from the Enlisted ranks/rates. The US Navy and Marine Corps both have Chief Warrant Officer and Limited Duty Officer commissioning programs which do not require college.
| Quote: |
| Many from wealthy backgrounds. |
True. And there are many officers who come from poorer backgrounds, yet went through college on an ROTC scholarship or went through one of the Federal Service Academies. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Actually, the aristocracy has always served in the military. It was almost a rite of passage. Officers in the military are college educated. Many from wealthy backgrounds.
|
That has always been the truth to a certain period in American history because in some of the causes America had fought for (minus modern conflicts), the conflicts had been aristocratic causes or causes that were hailed by aristocrats as being worthy of conflict.....
In the post-WWII era, most note-worthy people have stayed away from the conflicts that the US was drawn into.
My point, you will never see a note-worthy name in uniform...never.....and who is left?
| Quote: |
| Every military person I've met, was a thousand times more intelligent, kind, and considerate than you based off your post. |
Here you are basing your opinion off of personal observation. The way they act out of uniform is not the way they act in uniform.....Sure, there is a kind of mentality that should be kept in order to fight and win a war, but some of those qualities you will never see in a real soldier (you might see them on shows like "JAG" or "The Unit", etc.).
As long as senior commanders don't train people to be considerate of the people they are supposedly protecting, you will continue to get public opinion overseas of the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan as being 'occupying forces' (they think the same way in Korea....)
And I want to discuss that.......
Yes, the older generation know about the good things the US Army did for them during the Korean War.
There is some confusion as to why the younger generation are beginning to hate the American Army in Korea......
As the older generation grew under the ashes of the Korean War and its devastation, they also grew with the gratitude that the American military was there to liberate them from the harsh treatment of the KPLA and their CPLA allies.
However.....
The younger generation (those born after 1960 and into the 70's up to now) grew up hearing stories about what American soldiers do during off-duty in the local news media and during the 1960's, 70's and well into the 80's and early 90's, there was the problem of the 'Teekki" children, those born of Korean mothers and American fathers who abandoned them once they go back to the states.
Actually, alot of the protests these days by some Koreans stem from that situation- as they don't want teachers to do the same as what American soldiers got away with many years ago....
I also agree that those who become members of supposedly the most superior army in the world, should be held to a higher standard once they take the pledge, put on the uniform and step onto the ground of the place they are suppose to defend......
But they're not and they don't.
As become an NCO or an Officer- it is not that hard
NCO- all you need is to suck the right person's dick and to have enough promotion points to get promoted from one rank to the other.......
Officer- all you need is 60 college credits, a recommendation from your NCO (again, you have to kiss the right ass to get this) and go through OCS (which is nothing more than glorified basic training). However, you need to finish your BA to become a Captain......whoopty-doo!!!!
Now where in any of these qulaifications does it specify that the person must have high moral standards?
Nowhere......... |
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flip ant
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Location: He's got high hopes!
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Actually, the aristocracy has always served in the military. It was almost a rite of passage. Officers in the military are college educated. Many from wealthy backgrounds.
|
That has always been the truth to a certain period in American history because in some of the causes America had fought for (minus modern conflicts), the conflicts had been aristocratic causes or causes that were hailed by aristocrats as being worthy of conflict.....
In the post-WWII era, most note-worthy people have stayed away from the conflicts that the US was drawn into.
My point, you will never see a note-worthy name in uniform...never.....and who is left?
| Quote: |
| Every military person I've met, was a thousand times more intelligent, kind, and considerate than you based off your post. |
Here you are basing your opinion off of personal observation. The way they act out of uniform is not the way they act in uniform.....Sure, there is a kind of mentality that should be kept in order to fight and win a war, but some of those qualities you will never see in a real soldier (you might see them on shows like "JAG" or "The Unit", etc.).
As long as senior commanders don't train people to be considerate of the people they are supposedly protecting, you will continue to get public opinion overseas of the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan as being 'occupying forces' (they think the same way in Korea....)
And I want to discuss that.......
Yes, the older generation know about the good things the US Army did for them during the Korean War.
There is some confusion as to why the younger generation are beginning to hate the American Army in Korea......
As the older generation grew under the ashes of the Korean War and its devastation, they also grew with the gratitude that the American military was there to liberate them from the harsh treatment of the KPLA and their CPLA allies.
However.....
The younger generation (those born after 1960 and into the 70's up to now) grew up hearing stories about what American soldiers do during off-duty in the local news media and during the 1960's, 70's and well into the 80's and early 90's, there was the problem of the 'Teekki" children, those born of Korean mothers and American fathers who abandoned them once they go back to the states.
Actually, alot of the protests these days by some Koreans stem from that situation- as they don't want teachers to do the same as what American soldiers got away with many years ago....
I also agree that those who become members of supposedly the most superior army in the world, should be held to a higher standard once they take the pledge, put on the uniform and step onto the ground of the place they are suppose to defend......
But they're not and they don't.
As become an NCO or an Officer- it is not that hard
NCO- all you need is to suck the right person's dick and to have enough promotion points to get promoted from one rank to the other.......
Officer- all you need is 60 college credits, a recommendation from your NCO (again, you have to kiss the right ass to get this) and go through OCS (which is nothing more than glorified basic training). However, you need to finish your BA to become a Captain......whoopty-doo!!!!
Now where in any of these qulaifications does it specify that the person must have high moral standards?
Nowhere......... |
You offer a lot of opinions and nothing to back them up. NOTHING. I will not give this thread any more attention other than to say you have never worn a military uniform in your life. You are a fake and you have some serious anger issues. My guess is that some GI beat you up in a bar in the not-too-distant past. |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Actually, the aristocracy has always served in the military. It was almost a rite of passage. Officers in the military are college educated. Many from wealthy backgrounds.
|
That has always been the truth to a certain period in American history because in some of the causes America had fought for (minus modern conflicts), the conflicts had been aristocratic causes or causes that were hailed by aristocrats as being worthy of conflict.....
In the post-WWII era, most note-worthy people have stayed away from the conflicts that the US was drawn into.
My point, you will never see a note-worthy name in uniform...never.....and who is left?
| Quote: |
| Every military person I've met, was a thousand times more intelligent, kind, and considerate than you based off your post. |
Here you are basing your opinion off of personal observation. The way they act out of uniform is not the way they act in uniform.....Sure, there is a kind of mentality that should be kept in order to fight and win a war, but some of those qualities you will never see in a real soldier (you might see them on shows like "JAG" or "The Unit", etc.).
As long as senior commanders don't train people to be considerate of the people they are supposedly protecting, you will continue to get public opinion overseas of the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan as being 'occupying forces' (they think the same way in Korea....)
And I want to discuss that.......
Yes, the older generation know about the good things the US Army did for them during the Korean War.
There is some confusion as to why the younger generation are beginning to hate the American Army in Korea......
As the older generation grew under the ashes of the Korean War and its devastation, they also grew with the gratitude that the American military was there to liberate them from the harsh treatment of the KPLA and their CPLA allies.
However.....
The younger generation (those born after 1960 and into the 70's up to now) grew up hearing stories about what American soldiers do during off-duty in the local news media and during the 1960's, 70's and well into the 80's and early 90's, there was the problem of the 'Teekki" children, those born of Korean mothers and American fathers who abandoned them once they go back to the states.
Actually, alot of the protests these days by some Koreans stem from that situation- as they don't want teachers to do the same as what American soldiers got away with many years ago....
I also agree that those who become members of supposedly the most superior army in the world, should be held to a higher standard once they take the pledge, put on the uniform and step onto the ground of the place they are suppose to defend......
But they're not and they don't.
As become an NCO or an Officer- it is not that hard
NCO- all you need is to suck the right person's dick and to have enough promotion points to get promoted from one rank to the other.......
Officer- all you need is 60 college credits, a recommendation from your NCO (again, you have to kiss the right ass to get this) and go through OCS (which is nothing more than glorified basic training). However, you need to finish your BA to become a Captain......whoopty-doo!!!!
Now where in any of these qulaifications does it specify that the person must have high moral standards?
Nowhere......... |
They do specify "high morals" dumbass.
No noteworthy names in Uniform? West point and the other military colleges are harder to get into than Harvard and Yale.....you need a congressional recommendation letter to even have a chance! Your congressman doesn't write recommendation letters to "no-names".
Buddy, I don't think you'd last one week in OCS.....far from "glorified boot camp"....infact, I don't even think you'd come anywhere near passing the marine OCS Physical fitness test.
Did some marines steal your girl or whup your ass for being a loud mouth? I've seen some ignorant posts on Dave's but rarely this offensive and wrong. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wow!
Flip ant and Ukon......I didn't know Gis needed civilians to rescue them on this forum.........
As for not wearing a uniform a day in my life.....you have no idea about me.....thats ok, you can generalize all you want, this is suppose to be a 'free' message board....more power to you for expressing your opinion....
As for getting personal?
Way above that point in my life, I have no need to personally flame people...its too cheesy and pointless to insult people on an anonymous message board because you are only insulting the name of the person, not the person themselves...... 
Anyway, take care and have a nice day 
I still think American soldiers are nothing more than over-inflated, undereducated self-propelled sandbags whose sole purpose in life are to be fodder for IEDs.....
Other than that
Cheers* |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Lastat you silly gay vampire. |
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