|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Pligganease: some of the Wright affair represents spin, and almost certainly some of it came from Clinton's quarters.
On the other hand much of it is sincere concern that Obama would associate himself, at any time in his life, with someone who held such entrenched antiAmerican views.
"Negative spin" only gets us so far in understanding such things. Sooner or later we must account for the thing itself -- in this case, Wright and his politics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| So basically, your answer to my criticism of Obama's conduct of late is that it's all Hillary's fault. |
Dear God, Kuros. You are stooping to new depths . . . |
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a debate on an internet chatboard. Except for launching into ad hominems or mentioning the Nazis, its really no-holds barred, here.
| Quote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| How is Rev. Wright Hillary's fault? |
Puhleeze... Acting as if you don't realize the sensationalism of that story didn't come from Hillary mentioning it every time a camera was pointed at her shows your inability to see the whole story. |
You must be joking. Wright's comments neither originated with Hillary nor were cultivated by Hillary. Only after the press and the blogosphere batted it about for awhile did it become an issue. And this is an important point, because I agree, it was sensationalistic.
| Quote: |
Are you serious? Can you not see the difference between slandering the person who may be your party's candidate for president and defending yourself against ridiculously negative and untrue fear-mongering by the President, who happens to be a member of the opposing political party? |
First of all, Obama criticised Hillary plenty.
Second of all, I do see a difference. But Obama is the one promising to get past partisanship. Not Hillary.
Third of all, you didn't even address what I think is the meat of the issue. Obama handled his response poorly. He should have waited until the President had gotten back from his vacation before he responded. Or he could have said nothing. Instead of being the big man, Obama just showed he could be the big whine. Again, very little difference between Obama and Hillary on this issue.
| Quote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| How was Obama's cling comments Hillary's fault? |
"Cling?" are you referring to the "bitter" comment? What he said was not Hillary's fault, of course. However, twisting it and turning it into an insult against the people of Pennsylvania and plastering snippets of it on attack ads aimed against Obama was clearly her doing and it hurt the entire Democratic party in the process. |
It was an insult against the people of Pennsylvania, in addition to an admission that he had pandered in opposing NAFTA in Ohio. He said people, when they vote, cling to guns, religion, antipathy against people who are not like them, and anti-trade positions. Antipathy against people who are not like them? Sounds to me like he's possibly calling people in Pennsylvania racist, at least closed-minded. Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. But its certainly a bone-headed thing to say. That's my point. It hurt him immediately when he said it. And Hillary's presence really did little to magnify it.
| Quote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I'm not going to bother defend Hillary, because she has lost. |
No, by all means. Defend her. Please. |
On this board? Pointless. She's not going to be President, anyway. And maybe that is for the better. I'd say her biggest fault, as M-Dave has pointed out, was treating the proportional primary as a winner-takes-all contest. I don't think this impinges upon her ability to govern too greatly, but I'm not about to pity or defend someone's entire candidacy when they've made such an egregious error.
| Quote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Let's see if you can defend Barack on the merits, without finding a scapegoat. And, really, this isn't that much about Barack anymore. Its about you coming up with a response a little better than, 'bitter? I know you are, but what am I?' |
Why are you acting so childish, Kuros? I've made nothing but great points and you respond with schoolyard insults, strawmen, and deflection? |
Schoolyard insults? Huh?
I'm being aggressive because I'm trying to smoke out the whole 'Clinton-is-destroying-Obama' meme for the complete red herring that it is. Previously I've shown how the extended primaries have added registered voters to the fold. Elsewhere I've shown how Hillary has effectively ceased fire on attacking Obama. More important that being unjustified, however, Hillary-hate-downs are not going to solve any of Obama's problems now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
You are still not acknowledging that Obama will win this game, so to speak, in the last minutes of the fourth quarter by a bare field goal. A good, hard-fought victory, to be sure. But hardly the frontrunner's clean campaign and clean sweep you two seem to believe it was, above.
Given the bitterness on the Democratic side that Ferraro evinces, do you believe that Obama will come out of this process undamaged and with the Democratic Party standing behind him en masse? Without any clear and obvious wedges that the Republicans will not hesitate to exploit to the fullest?
If you were a Clinton supporter...better yet, assume that you still support Obama, and Clinton won and Obama lost. And after all that has been said and done, how much support could she count on from you? Now turn that around: how much support do you expect the likes of Ferraro to throw Obama's way come the convention and the season leading up to November?
No tears from me. I shall vote for McCain and against Obama. So do not get me wrong: I like that the Democrats have so openly divided themselves along race, class, and gendered lines. |
Gopher,
Yes, Obama will win it after a long bitterly divided campaign. I disagree with you that it's as close as you (or Clinton supporters) make it out to be. Take into account Clinton started with a 100 superdelegate lead at the beginning of the year and pretty much had every advantage necessary to win (except a game plan).
I'd equate it to one of my favorite NFC Championship games, Dallas vs. SF in 1995. The Cowboys were a tough opponent, but fumbled the ball 2-3 times in the beginning of the game and found themselves down 21-0 at halftime.
Anyone remember the final score of the game?
38-28 SF |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| I disagree with you that it's as close as you (or Clinton supporters) make it out to be. Take into account... |
Clinton vs. Obama: 1700 to 1900, respectively (or 305 to 277 Superdelegates). Close. Very close. (Still an Obama win, however, although I doubt he will win by the equivalent of 38-28. More like 27-24.)
McCain vs. Huckabee: 1400 to 275, respectively. Not close at all. (No question whatsoever that McCain dominates the Republican vote.)
Again, if the Democratic race were not so close, Clinton would be out of the news and we would not be having this discussion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bookemdanno
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good thread, Gopher.
mises observed:
| Quote: |
The obsession with race/gender in the party, then, might actually prevent an African American or female being elected this time around? Is this the outcome of competing victimologies? Every victim in her corner?
Seems silly. |
Ah, yes, but isn't it so damn fitting for the party that claims a monopoly on social justice and humanist virtue? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
