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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Call this Liberalism 1. This liberalism is reflected in such principles as the right to vote, to assemble freely, to debate issues, to trade with others, religious toleration, and so on.
Then there is the modern liberalism of the 1960s. Call this Liberalism 2. This liberalism is defined by such tenets as the right to blaspheme, the right of teenage boys and girls to receive sex education and contraceptives, the right to abortion, prostitution as a worker's right, pornography as a protected form of expression, gay rights and gay marriage, and so on. It is this second type of liberalism that seems to drive the social agenda of today's Democratic Party.
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Bit off the beaten path here, but I don't think this is an accurate summation of the distinctions between the two types of liberalism. Some of the items on the Liberalism 2 list are simply applications of the items on the Liberalism 1 list.
For example, the right to work as a prostitute, as defended by liberals, flows directly from the right to trade with others. And the right to blaspheme is nothing more than classical liberalism's right to debate issues taken to its logical conclusion.
The more proper division within liberalism is between classical(eg. John Locke), and reform liberalism(eg. John Stuart Mill, Franklin Roosevelt). The pivotal distinction there would be reform liberalism's willingness to embrace government intervention as a means of enhancing individual freedom. In a nutshell...
CLASSICAL LIBERAL: You have the right to watch gay porn movies.
REFORM LIBERAL: The government has an obligation to fund the production of artistically relevant gay pornography, to ensure that all voices are represented in the discourse of eroticism.
And on a lot of issues, this distinction is not going to be one that matters to your average fundamentalist zealot. If a guy thinls that anyone involved in gay porn should be burned at the stake, he's probably not really gonna care if the deviants are getting taxpayers money or not. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Leading Saudi Woman Blogger Passes Away @ Age 25
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Alhodaif, who maintained �Heaven�s Steps� (http://hdeel.ws/blog), often challenged other Saudi women to join her in stepping out of the shadows of anonymity and devote their writing to issues of social importance.
�I wish that Saudi women bloggers would step forward in their writing instead of simply writing their personal diaries,� she told Arab News in an interview last year. She said that blogging offered a unique opportunity in Saudi Arabia to create a �new free media� to face off against the entrenched establishment newspapers and television channels and give the public what they really wanted to know. In some cases she would appear in these media outlets, such as AlJazeera and Saudi Channel One. |
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Last year her play �Who Fears The Doors� was performed at the men�s section of King Saud University. In her blog Alhodaif mocked the fact that even as the playwright she was not allowed to attend the performance of her own work due to the university�s strict policy on the mingling of the sexes.
�I guess I have to beg the male audience to inform me how my play was produced,� she wrote in Arabic. �I hope that a day comes when I can attend a cultural function where the presence of women does not cause anyone an allergic reaction!� |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
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| Most Muslims agree on what the West should do first to improve relations: demonstrate more respect, show more understanding of Islam as a religion, and not denigrate what it stands for. The issues that drive radicals are also important to mainstream Muslims, but they differ in their priorities and the degree of politicization and alienation. |
Re the bold, I fail to see, as a militant anti-theist, why Islam as a body of doctrine is worthy of any respect. None of us respect Naziism nor communism - indeed we celebrate our victories over them - so Islam, far harsher an ideology than Naziism and Communism, is worthy of no respect as a body of doctrine. I'll have a drink and a chat with a Commie or a neo-Nazi, but I'll have no respect at all for their ideology. I'll sit down and have dinner with a Muslim, but have no respect for their ideology, because it disgusts me. Religion disgusts me. It is morally debasing. |
I agree agree agree. It deserves no respect, and will get none.
Here is some evidence of the civil society the epic apologist is talking about:
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| Pakistan Takes Steps Towards Shari'a State In Seven Districts |
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD193308
Dynamic! Look at all that change! Sure, it is a culture and country regressing but the regression is progressively happening, dynamically, relatively speaking. |
That article screamed dynamic issues from start to finish, eh? A dynamic and civil dynamo!
Meanwhile, in Iran...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7409288.stm
So much for freedom of religion in Iran. Wiki on the Bahai Faith:
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| Bah�'� teachings emphasize the spiritual oneness of humanity and the underlying unity of the major world religions. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Weird and totally unrelated events in the UK and USA
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A man has been remanded in custody charged with spraying urine at two supermarkets, a pub and a book shop.
Sahnoun Daifallah, 42, of Bibury Road, from Gloucester, appeared before magistrates and pleaded not guilty to four charges of contaminating products.
He was arrested on Friday after a substance, believed to be urine, was sprayed over produce at Tesco in Quedgeley and Morrisons at Abbeydale. [...]
In court prosecutor Liz Thomas said two days earlier Mr Daifallah used an improvised device to shower hundreds of children's books at Waterstones in Cirencester.
He is also charged with releasing the liquid over food in the Air Balloon pub, near Cheltenham.... |
And another..
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A cab driver in Dallas, Texas, was allegedly caught on surveillance video sprinkling dried fecal matter on cookies and pastries at a grocery store, according to a Local 6 News.
Behrouz Nahidmobarekeh, 49, is on trial for allegedly throwing the feces on pastries at a Fiesta grocery store.
Police said that during an investigation, they found a pile of human feces by his bed. Investigators believe Nahidmobarekeh would dry the feces, either by microwave or just letting it sit out, grate it up with a cheese grater and then sprinkle it at the store.
"(We are) unable to identify him; just a young boy, maybe 3 years old, on the surveillance tape you can see him eating one of the cookies and that's the worst part about it ,I think."
Attorneys in the case were unclear about a motive in the case. |
http://www.local6.com/news/5182853/detail.html
Where would they get such an idea?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihad16chap7.html
An al-quaeda training manual? Wacky! |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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And another...
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Shop-owners sold chocolate cake sprinkled with human faeces
Last updated at 13:08 11 February 2008
Funny taste: A hungry customer was horrified when they realised the chocolate cake was covered in human faeces
Two shop-owners were today fined for selling chocolate cake - which had been sprinkled with human faeces.
A horrified customer ate the foul-smelling gateaux but noticed that it didn't taste or smell "quite right" and handed the cake to public health scientists.
The analysts soon established that the sweet treat was covered in faeces and legal proceedings against the shop owners were started.
Shop owners Saeed Hasmi, 25, and Jan Yadgari, 23, were fined �1,500 for selling food unfit for human consumption. |
http://www.dailymail.co.uk |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Look at the dynamism and civil society at work! Progressively regressing, relatively.
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Iran launches fresh crackdown on websites: report
TEHRAN (AFP) � Iranian authorities have blocked access to several websites and blogs of women's rights advocates and journalists critical of the government, a press report said on Tuesday.
The move follows a new directive sent out by a committee tasked with identifying illegal websites to Internet service providers, the reformist Etemad Melli newspaper said without giving a source.
"There seems to be a tougher approach this time as some sites and weblogs belonging to women's rights and human rights campaigners, writers critical of the government and well-known journalists" have been singled out, it said.
Internet providers in Iran have in recent years been told to block access to hundreds of political, human rights and women's sites and weblogs for expressing dissent or deemed to be pornographic and anti-Islamic.
The report said several feminist websites including Meydaan-e Zanan (Women's Field), Kanoon Zanan Irani (Iranian Women's Centre), Shir Zanan which covers women's sporting events, and "Change for Equality" have been blocked.
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http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jgPmlgFydl8ifBE-OLsLXcyQYUgg |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps you didn't see the link the first time through, people who continue to shout "OMG ISLAM IS BAD."
It's a religion, and as such it's very easy to use it to do very bad things.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0517/p12s01-wogi.html |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
Perhaps you didn't see the link the first time through, people who continue to shout "OMG ISLAM IS BAD."
It's a religion, and as such it's very easy to use it to do very bad things.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0517/p12s01-wogi.html |
Damn good stuff!!  |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
Perhaps you didn't see the link the first time through, people who continue to shout "OMG ISLAM IS BAD."
It's a religion, and as such it's very easy to use it to do very bad things.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0517/p12s01-wogi.html |
Thanks for posting the exact same study for a second time. Did you read my response to when you posted it previously? And why post it again in response to (a) an article on Pakistan, (b) an article on Iran (did you even read them?), (c) Mises' articles on specific instances of Islamic extremism (and latterly Iran)? Of what use is that study there? How does it relate?
Nobody, no sane or reasonable person, believes the dangerous element to Islam is anything but a minority (possibly a large minority of those living in the West in particular (never had any objective data of Muslims in the Muslim World previously, did we, as the report states correctly and explicitly?)) but a minority, an alarming, violent and totally indecent minority nonetheless. Refuting a claim that nobody has made is called a strawman argument and re-posting a study that has nothing to do with recent unrelated posts is needlessly uncivil and highly personalized discourse.
Is hostility to hostility to religion your religion? If you've some theistic agenda - if you're not a militant anti-theist - I'm not sure I want any business with you at all.
I've already responded to 'What do 1 billion Muslims think?' - what say yer, eh?
| desultude wrote: |
| Damn good stuff!! |
Not sure why you'd consider it "damn good stuff" since the study neither includes your beloved Kingdom of Foot Amputations nor your absurd bunkum about dynamic issues, dynamic dynamos or civil societies. Did you read the Pakistan and Iran articles posted on this page? I've responded to the CS study and when someone re-posts it all you have to say is "good stuff"? Jesus, seeing these apologists in action is exactly like observing clowns and freaks. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Weird and totally unrelated events in the UK and USA
| Quote: |
A man has been remanded in custody charged with spraying urine at two supermarkets, a pub and a book shop.
Sahnoun Daifallah, 42, of Bibury Road, from Gloucester, appeared before magistrates and pleaded not guilty to four charges of contaminating products.
He was arrested on Friday after a substance, believed to be urine, was sprayed over produce at Tesco in Quedgeley and Morrisons at Abbeydale. [...]
In court prosecutor Liz Thomas said two days earlier Mr Daifallah used an improvised device to shower hundreds of children's books at Waterstones in Cirencester.
He is also charged with releasing the liquid over food in the Air Balloon pub, near Cheltenham.... |
And another..
| Quote: |
A cab driver in Dallas, Texas, was allegedly caught on surveillance video sprinkling dried fecal matter on cookies and pastries at a grocery store, according to a Local 6 News.
Behrouz Nahidmobarekeh, 49, is on trial for allegedly throwing the feces on pastries at a Fiesta grocery store.
Police said that during an investigation, they found a pile of human feces by his bed. Investigators believe Nahidmobarekeh would dry the feces, either by microwave or just letting it sit out, grate it up with a cheese grater and then sprinkle it at the store.
"(We are) unable to identify him; just a young boy, maybe 3 years old, on the surveillance tape you can see him eating one of the cookies and that's the worst part about it ,I think."
Attorneys in the case were unclear about a motive in the case. |
http://www.local6.com/news/5182853/detail.html
Where would they get such an idea?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihad16chap7.html
An al-quaeda training manual? Wacky! |
I gotta say, if this IS an al-Qaeda operation , that organization certainly does seem to be in its downhill years. In less than a decade, they've gone from murdering thousands in a New York skyscraper, to shitting on the cookies in Texas. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
Weird and totally unrelated events in the UK and USA
| Quote: |
A man has been remanded in custody charged with spraying urine at two supermarkets, a pub and a book shop.
Sahnoun Daifallah, 42, of Bibury Road, from Gloucester, appeared before magistrates and pleaded not guilty to four charges of contaminating products.
He was arrested on Friday after a substance, believed to be urine, was sprayed over produce at Tesco in Quedgeley and Morrisons at Abbeydale. [...]
In court prosecutor Liz Thomas said two days earlier Mr Daifallah used an improvised device to shower hundreds of children's books at Waterstones in Cirencester.
He is also charged with releasing the liquid over food in the Air Balloon pub, near Cheltenham.... |
And another..
| Quote: |
A cab driver in Dallas, Texas, was allegedly caught on surveillance video sprinkling dried fecal matter on cookies and pastries at a grocery store, according to a Local 6 News.
Behrouz Nahidmobarekeh, 49, is on trial for allegedly throwing the feces on pastries at a Fiesta grocery store.
Police said that during an investigation, they found a pile of human feces by his bed. Investigators believe Nahidmobarekeh would dry the feces, either by microwave or just letting it sit out, grate it up with a cheese grater and then sprinkle it at the store.
"(We are) unable to identify him; just a young boy, maybe 3 years old, on the surveillance tape you can see him eating one of the cookies and that's the worst part about it ,I think."
Attorneys in the case were unclear about a motive in the case. |
http://www.local6.com/news/5182853/detail.html
Where would they get such an idea?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihad16chap7.html
An al-quaeda training manual? Wacky! |
I gotta say, if this IS an al-Qaeda operation , that organization certainly does seem to be in its downhill years. In less than a decade, they've gone from murdering thousands in a New York skyscraper, to shitting on the cookies in Texas. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Who said this was the tops of AQ's ability? I'm quite sure it isn't coordinated.
AQ and other islamist groups are a huge threat in the EU. In the UK alone there are more than 2,000 muslim groups under heavy surveillance for terrorist activities. The crapping on food, along with honor killings, no-go areas, anti-Semitic hate crimes, homophobic assaults and rape is just part and parcel of the new European reality. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Dynamic goings on in Gambia. Progressively moving towards civil society.
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President plans to kill off every single homosexual
Gambian President Yahya Jammeh says he will �cut off the head� of any homosexual caught in his country.
Monday 19 May 2008
Addressing supporters at the end of his meet the farmers tour here Sunday,
Jammeh also ordered any hotel or motel housing homosexuals to close down, adding that owners of such facilities would also be in trouble.
He said the Gambia was a country of believers, indicating that no sinful and immoral act as homosexual would be tolerated in the country.
He warned all homosexuals in the country to leave, noting that a legislation �stricter than those in Iran � concerning the vice would be introduced soon. |
http://en.afrik.com/article13630.html
I'm sure the civil society is progressively discussing this plan by the government. Relatively, of course. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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More on the "progressive" front:
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NIGERIA: RESCUE OF GIRLS IGNITES ISLAMIC RAMPAGE
Six churches gutted after recovery of Christians teenagers from Muslim kidnappers.
NINGI, Nigeria, May 19 (Compass Direct News) � Islamists under the auspices of a paramilitary force last week destroyed six churches to protest a police rescue of two teenage Christian girls kidnapped by Muslims in this Bauchi state town.
Police recovered the two Christian girls, Mary Chikwodi Okoye, 15, and Uche Edward, 14, on May 12 after Muslims in Ningi kidnapped them three weeks ago in an attempt to expand Islam by marrying them to Muslim men. Police took the two girls, who had been under foster care, to safety in southeastern Nigeria where their biological parents live.
The kidnappers had taken the girls to Wudil town in Kano state. Following the rescue of the girls, Muslims under the auspices of the Hisbah Command, a paramilitary arm of Kano state�s Sharia Commission, responsible for enforcing Islamic law, went on a rampage on Tuesday (May 13), attacking Christians and setting fire to the churches. |
Not that this is new:
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SOKOTO, Nigeria, March 14 (Compass Direct News) � Beginning in November of last year, 13-year-old Victor Udo Usen, a member of the Christ Apostolic Church in this northern Nigeria city, went missing.
On February 20, news that young Victor was spotted in a Muslim neighbor�s house jolted his family. A young Christian girl had raced to the Usens� home in the Mabera area of Sokoto city with the news.
Victor�s mother, Esther Udo Usen, told Compass that she ran to the house where her son had been seen. She met him, however, even as he was making frantic efforts to escape from the house where he has been held incommunicado for six months.
�I quickly held his hands and dragged him along with me towards our house,� she said. �But within a twinkle of an eye, I heard shouts of �Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar [God is great]!� I was shocked as I saw a large number of Muslims rushing towards us.�
The mob surrounded them and snatched her son away from her, she told Compass with tears in her eyes. Before she could send for her husband, who was not home at the time, members of the mob told her that her son was now a Muslim and that she and her husband were no longer his parents.
�They abducted him in November last year, and I only saw him today,� she told Compass. �How can someone force my son into his religion?� |
More!
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IRAN: POLICE ARREST 12 CHRISTIAN CONVERTS
Four still imprisoned in crackdown in Shiraz.
ISTANBUL, May 21 (Compass Direct News) � Police in the southern Iran city of Shiraz this month cracked down against known Muslim converts to Christianity, arresting members of three Christian families and confiscating their books and computers. The arrests began on May 11, when two couples were taken into custody before boarding their flights at the Shiraz International Airport and sent directly to jail. All four were subjected to hours of interrogation, questioning them solely �just about their faith and house church activities,� an Iranian source told Compass. The detained Christians were identified as Homayon Shokohie Gholamzadeh, 48, and his wife Fariba Nazemiyan Pur, 40; and Amir Hussein Bab Anari, 25, and his wife Fatemeh Shenasa, 25. Although the two wives were released the same day of their arrest, Anari was detained until May 14, and Gholamzadeh remains jailed. Two hours after the early morning arrests of May 11, police authorities invaded the home of Hamid Allaedin Hussein, 58, arresting him and his three adult children. Over the past two years, Iran�s harsh Shiite Muslim regime has continued to arrest, harass and intimidate dozens of citizens involved in the nation�s mushrooming house church movements. Converts from Islam are routinely subjected to both physical and psychological mistreatment while being held for days or weeks, usually in solitary confinement. |
And More!
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JORDAN: EX-MUSLIM TRIED FOR CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY
Relatives attack convert family for deserting Islam.
ISTANBUL, April 24 (Compass Direct News) � On trial for converting from Islam to Christianity, a Jordanian man may lose legal custody of his children and have his marriage annulled if found guilty of �apostasy.� Mohammad Abbad, 40, fled Jordan last month after Muslims violently attacked him and his 10-year-old son in their home and his father sued him on charges of apostasy, or leaving Islam. �I can�t win this case as long as I insist that I converted from Islam to Christianity,� Abbad wrote from the safety of a nearby country. �The court will annul my marriage, I will be deprived of my kids, I will be with no ID or passport, and my properties will be confiscated,� said the father of two, referring to a previous Jordanian apostasy verdict. In a separate November 2004 ruling, an Amman Sharia Court headed by Judge Suleiman Abdullah Abu Yahya convicted a Muslim convert to Christianity of apostasy. Stripped of all his legal rights, the convert and his family fled Jordan to escape the verdict. |
More??
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ALGERIA: CHRISTIAN SENTENCED FOR CARRYING BIBLE
Police pressure convert to return to Islam during �illegal� five-day detention.
ALGIERS, Algeria, May 9 (Compass Direct News) � An Algerian Christian detained five days for carrying a Bible and personal Bible study books was handed a 300-euro (US$460) fine and a one-year suspended prison sentence last week, an Algerian church leader said. Last Tuesday (April 29) a court in Djilfa, 150 miles south of Algiers, charged the 33-year-old Muslim convert to Christianity with �printing, storing and distributing� illegal religious material. A written copy of the verdict has yet to be issued. The Protestant, who requested anonymity for security reasons, told fellow Christians in his home city of Tiaret that police pressured him to return to Islam while in custody. The conviction is the latest in a wave of detentions and court cases against Algeria�s Protestants and Catholics. Since January police and provincial officials have ordered the closure of up to half of the country�s 50 estimated Protestant congregations. Officials in several instances have cited a February 2006 law governing the worship of non-Muslims. Clarified by subsequent decrees in 2007, the law restricts most religious meetings to approved places of worship and forbids any attempt to �shake the faith of a Muslim.� |
Still more?
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BANGLADESH: PASTOR�S 13-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER GANG-RAPED
Area Muslims bent on driving Christian expansion from northern part of country.
DHAKA, Bangladesh, May 8 (Compass Direct News) � Muslim villagers in Mymensingh district eager to rid the area of the Christian work of a local pastor have gang-raped his 13-year-old daughter. Pastor Motilal Das of United Bethany Church said that at around 3 a.m. on Friday (May 2) the villagers sexually assaulted his daughter, Elina Das, and left her unconscious in front of his house in an attempt to drive him and his Christian ministry out of Laksmipur village in Fulbaria sub-district, 120 kilometers (75 miles) north of the capital. Local residents have long been angry with him for his ministry and evangelism, he said, and he has received death threats. �I did not pay attention to any of the threats or hindrances � I continued evangelical and pastoral activities with prayer,� Das told Compass. �When nothing stopped me, then they wanted to leave me scarred for life, so that I would be upset and not be able to show my face to the society for shame, and therefore I would leave the village.� |
Nah, more?
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TURKEY: ARMED MEN THREATEN CHURCH
Incident in Ankara marks seventh threat of violence in past four months.
ISTANBUL, May 7 (Compass Direct News) � Three men, one of them armed with a gun and wearing gloves, threatened a Protestant church and its pastor in the Turkish capital city of Ankara yesterday. The culprits fled in a car before police could be summoned. The men drove up to Kurtulus Church in Ankara�s Cebeci district, and a heavy-set man about 45 years old went up to the locked church building and began to ring the doorbell repeatedly. He threatened to �get rid� of the pastor, and moments later one of the men in his car began walking toward a nearby church member, shouting and waving a pistol at him. The attempted attack marked the seventh incident in the past four months of threatened violence against Turkey�s tiny Protestant community, most of whom are former Muslims who converted to Christianity. |
Bleh. Dynamic Hub of blah.
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INDONESIA: ISLAMISTS THREATEN TO TEAR DOWN CHURCH
Extremists in North Sumatra put halt to construction as officials withhold worship permit.
JAKARTA, May 6 (Compass Direct News) � Muslim extremists and local government authorities last week threatened to tear down a church building under construction in North Sumatra even though church leaders met requirements of Indonesia�s draconian law on worship places, the church�s pastor said. Emboldened by local authorities� unwillingness to grant a church building permit to Protestant Bataks Christian Church (Huria Kristen Batak Protestan, or HKBP), some 100 Muslim extremists accompanied by government officials on April 29 tried to destroy the building under construction in Jati Makmur village, North Binjai, 22 kilometers (14 miles) from the provincial capital of Medan. The Rev. Monang Silaban, HKBP pastor, said about 100 members of the Islamic extremist Front Pembela Islam (Islamic Defender Front), some armed with �sharp weapons,� arrived at 4:30 p.m. accompanied by Binjai municipal officials, who brought a bulldozer. Police met with church and Muslim extremist group leaders following the confrontation and reached an agreement that construction on the building would cease until the permit is approved � something that hasn�t happened in the two years since HKBP applied. |
A pattern of progressive tolerance and diversity?
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ALGERIA: AUTHORITIES DETAIN CHRISTIANS LEAVING PRAYER MEETING
Protestants charged with distributing literature to �shake the faith of Muslims.�
ISTANBUL, May 15 (Compass Direct News) � Algerian authorities have charged six Christians with distributing illegal religious material after detaining them as they left a prayer meeting in a western city last week. The Protestants were charged with �distributing documents to shake the faith of Muslims,� according to a written court summons issued Saturday (May 10) prior to the men�s release in Tiaret city. Their first hearing is scheduled for May 27. During the detainees� overnight stay at a local police station, officers repeatedly threatened them for converting from Islam to Christianity, one of the Christians said. �They said we were accomplices and the spies of the Jews, thus we deserve to have our throats cut without pity,� said Djillali Saibi. At least 10 Protestants living in or visiting Tiaret have been detained or convicted since February. Approximately half the country�s Protestant congregations have been ordered to close. |
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php
Better post that CSM article again. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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If you're gonna talk about pre-industrial, authoritarian societies like Nigeria and the Gambia, you should also throw in some examples of non-Muslim misbehaviour as well. Christians in Nigeria, for example, aren't exactly living the Sermon On The Mount...
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At least 57,000 people fled their homes following sectarian violence involving Christians and Muslims in northern and central Nigeria. More than 30,000 Christians have been displaced from their homes in Kano, the largest city in northern Nigeria, which was racked by religious violence on Tuesday and Wednesday. A further 27,000 displaced people had sought refuge in Bauchi state in east central Nigeria following a massacre of Muslims by Christian gangs in neighbouring Plateau state earlier in May.
President Olusegun Obasanjo declared a state of emergency in Plateau State in central Nigeria on 18 May 2004, following the Christian massacre of Muslims that in turn led to reprisal killings of Christians in the northern city of Kano. The bloodletting had claimed more than 2,000 lives since September 2001. Obasanjo sacked governor Joshua Dariye, accusing him of failing to act to end a cycle of violence between the Plateau State's Muslim and Christian communities. The president also disolved the Plateau State legislature and appointed a retired army general, Chris Ali, as interim administrator for the next six months. Ali is a native of Plateau State.
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And support for this sort of thing would seem to extend well beyond the fringes of Nigerian Christendom...
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One story involves the attack on a Christian church in Yelwa in February 2004. The church was burned, and all 70 of the Christians who were worshipping there were killed.
About two months later, the Christians retaliated:
...Two months after the church was razed, Christian men and boys surrounded Yelwa. Many were bare-chested; others wore shirts on which they�d reportedly pinned white name tags identifying them as members of the Christian Association of Nigeria, an umbrella organization founded in the 1970s to give Christians a collective and unified voice as strong as that of Muslims. Each tag had a number instead of a name: a code, it seemed, for identification. They attacked the town. According to Human Rights Watch, 660 Muslims were massacred over the course of the next two days, including the patients in the Al-Amin clinic. Twelve mosques and 300 houses went up in flames. Young girls were marched to a nearby Christian town and forced to eat pork and drink alcohol. Many were raped, and 50 were killed...Does the Christian Association of Nigeria ring a bell? It should:
... At the time of the massacre, Archbishop Peter Akinola was the president of the Christian Association of Nigeria, whose membership was implicated in the killings. He has since lost his bid for another term but, as primate of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, he is still the leader of 18 million Anglicans. He is a colleague of my father, who was the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in America from 1997 to 2006. But the American Episcopals� election of an openly homosexual bishop in 2003, which Archbishop Akinola denounced as �satanic,� created distance between them...
Ms Griswold went to see Abp. Akinola. Here is part of his response to her questions:
...When asked if those wearing name tags that read �Christian Association of Nigeria� had been sent to the Muslim part of Yelwa, the archbishop grinned. �No comment,� he said. �No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naive to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet.� He went on, �I�m not out to combat anybody. I�m only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I�m living my faith, practicing and preaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to God, and they respect me for it. They know where we stand. I�ve said before: let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence�...
He grinned, and then said "No comment." |
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