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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Geez I'm gone for a week and no response? I guess I argued you two into a corner, huh. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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There's a lot of catching up I have to do and it's going to take way more than a week, even if I have the desire and inclination to do so. Actually, you have piqued my interest again, but it is not my #1 priority.
Your attempted epidemiological explanation is not convincing, and I still find it too convenient that a disease would just arise attacking mainly "undesirables," especially knowing the biological research that was going on.
OTOH, if Duesberg has changed his ideas, it definitely warrants serious reconsideration. Sorry, but I don't know when I'll get back to you on this. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Your attempted epidemiological explanation is not convincing |
Why not? Sure seems to be the consensus opinion of virology.
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| and I still find it too convenient that a disease would just arise attacking mainly "undesirables," especially knowing the biological research that was going on. |
Are there diseases that don't attack primary undesirables? The Pope oddly survived the black death. Maybe the Pope caused it? Odd that. Last time I checked malaria wasn't a problem in the first world.
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| OTOH, if Duesberg has changed his ideas, it definitely warrants serious reconsideration. |
Yep. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of Duesberg vs the Sydney Group:
http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2008/05/hahahahahahahaha_you_guys_omg.php
The MP3
http://67.212.67.19/PubPodcast//crash/052208.mp3
Wherein Duesberg debates Horowitz. See Duesberg believes HIV is real but AIDS is a result of bad lifestyle choices. Horowitz believes HIV causes AIDS but it was manufactured, by Duesberg!
Now, I've seen you guys cite Horowitz quite a lot. But you really need to listen to this guy to see what a ranting lunatic he really his. When a guy reads a prepared statement that comes across sounding like a rambling enraged kook, you're really not dealing with a sober scientist type.
Here, let me quote you Horowitz's words:
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| I, Dr Leonard Horowitz, respecting and representing thousands of scientists and physicians worldwide whose voices have been neglected and silenced, as a diplomatic officer for the World Organization for Natural Medicine, as a representative of God, knighted in the Sovereign Orthodox Order of Knights Hospitaller of St John of Jerusalem, as a Levitical priest in the bloodlines of Moses and Yeshua the Messiah, I do hereby indict you, Dr Peter Deusberg, for the deaths of millions of people worldwide, for your role in the creation of AIDS, as well as in the disinformation that sustains this, and related medical genocides. This official indictment condemns you for the mass killing and pharmaceutical enslaving of millions of people to AIDS, infectious cancers, and myriad immune pathologies, resulting from your and your collaborators' manipulations, creations and disseminations of viruses, using genetic modifications and vaccinations, you conducted or abetted. You, along with your colleagues, including Dr Robert Gallo, prostituting virologists and molecular biologists, working for the National Cancer Institute, and paid by Litton Bionetics, a biological weapons contractor for the United States military, having advanced the special virus cancer program during the late 1960s, through the 1970s, are hereby held accountable for the people, and to God, for these crimes against humanity, resulting in this global tragedy of the pandemic now called AIDS, for other cancers, and other autoimmune illnesses that are now devastating populations. This indictment is served publicly and officially, with accompanying evidence of the official contracts, actions taken and payments made to you, published in the Special Virus Cancer Program Reports, that have been now made public during several investigations by many independent investigators. This official indictment, served as a humanitarian action, prays to the courts of Heaven and Earth that you will be punished to the fullest extent of the law, both man's and God's, and condemns you, for eternity, for the mass slaughter and enslavement of humanity to HIV/AIDS, and these other illnesses. |
He's claiming he's a descendant of Moses and Jesus? Really, now.
So, um, who do you believe? If you believe Horowitz, then Duesberg is not only a liar but a mass killer. If you believe Duesberg, Horowitz is a quack who has mislead millions.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sat May 24, 2008 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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There are other works that people repeating Wright's baseless allegations need to confront and respond to:
William H. McNeill's Plagues and Peoples (1977, 1997), esp. his Preface (1997), 9-17. Argues that HIV/AIDS is a longstanding human disease.
Also see Mirko D. Grmek, History of AIDS: Emergence and Origins of a Modern Pandemic (1990). McNeill cites him. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Here's a new article from a mainstream journal which disputes the idea that Duesberg has changed his tune.
It comes 12 years after the article linked above in which Duesberg said, "HIV exists and has been isolated."
Has Duesberg made another about-face? Did he ever really retract?
AIDS: �It�s the bacteria, stupid!�
Lawrence Broxmeyer and Alan Cantwell
C/o Med-America Research, 208-11 Estates Drive, Bayside, NY 11360, USA bKaiser Permanente Medical Center, 11668 Sherman Way, North Hollywood, CA 91605, USA
Received 1 May 2008; accepted 4 June 2008. Available online 8 August 2008.
Summary
Acid-fast tuberculous mycobacterial infections are common in AIDS and are regarded as secondary �opportunistic infections.� According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, TB is the major attributable cause of death in AIDS patients. Could such bacteria play a primary or causative role in AIDS?
Certainly, In screening tests for HIV, there is frequent, up to 70%, cross-reactivity, between the gag and pol proteins of HIV and patients with mycobacterial infections such as tuberculosis. By 1972, five years before gays started dying in the U.S., Rolland wrote Genital Tuberculosis, a Forgotten Disease? And ironically, in 1979, on the eve of AIDS recognition, Gondzik and Jasiewicz showed that even in the laboratory, genitally infected tubercular male guinea pigs could infect healthy females through their semen by an HIV-compatible ratio of 1 in 6 or 17%, prompting him to warn his patients that not only was tuberculosis a sexually transmitted disease, but also the necessity of the application of suitable contraceptives, such as condoms, to avoid it. Gondzik�s solution and date of publication are chilling; his findings significant.
Since 1982 Cantwell et al found acid-fast bacteria closely related to tuberculosis (TB) and atypical tuberculosis in AIDS tissue. On the other hand molecular biologist and virologist Duesberg, who originally defined retroviral ultrastructure, has made it clear that HIV is not the cause of AIDS and that the so-called AIDS retrovirus has never been isolated in its pure state. Dr. Etienne de Harven, first to examine retroviruses under the electron, agrees. In 1993 HIV co-discoverer Luc Montagnier reported on cell-wall-deficient (CWD) bacteria which he called �mycoplasma� in AIDS tissue. He suspected these as a necessary �co-factor� for AIDS. Remarkably, Montagnier remained silent on Cantwell�s reports of acid-fast bacteria which could simulate �mycoplasma� in AIDS tissue. Mattman makes clear that the differentiation between mycoplasma and CWD bacteria is difficult at best and cites Pachas�s 1985 study wherein one mycoplasma was actually mistaken for a CWD form of a bacterium closely related to the mycobacteria.
It is important to realize that the statement �HIV is the sole cause of AIDS� is just a hypothesis. There are unanswered questions and controversy concerning the role of HIV �as the sole cause of AIDS.� And until they are resolved, a cure is not possible. This paper explores the possible role of acid-fast tuberculous mycobacteria as �primary agents� in AIDS. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Here's a new article from a mainstream journal which disputes the idea that Duesberg has changed his tune.
It comes 12 years after the article linked above in which Duesberg said, "HIV exists and has been isolated."
Has Duesberg made another about-face? Did he ever really retract?
AIDS: �It�s the bacteria, stupid!�
Lawrence Broxmeyer and Alan Cantwell
C/o Med-America Research, 208-11 Estates Drive, Bayside, NY 11360, USA bKaiser Permanente Medical Center, 11668 Sherman Way, North Hollywood, CA 91605, USA
Received 1 May 2008; accepted 4 June 2008. Available online 8 August 2008.
Summary
Acid-fast tuberculous mycobacterial infections are common in AIDS and are regarded as secondary �opportunistic infections.� According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, TB is the major attributable cause of death in AIDS patients. Could such bacteria play a primary or causative role in AIDS?
Certainly, In screening tests for HIV, there is frequent, up to 70%, cross-reactivity, between the gag and pol proteins of HIV and patients with mycobacterial infections such as tuberculosis. By 1972, five years before gays started dying in the U.S., Rolland wrote Genital Tuberculosis, a Forgotten Disease? And ironically, in 1979, on the eve of AIDS recognition, Gondzik and Jasiewicz showed that even in the laboratory, genitally infected tubercular male guinea pigs could infect healthy females through their semen by an HIV-compatible ratio of 1 in 6 or 17%, prompting him to warn his patients that not only was tuberculosis a sexually transmitted disease, but also the necessity of the application of suitable contraceptives, such as condoms, to avoid it. Gondzik�s solution and date of publication are chilling; his findings significant.
Since 1982 Cantwell et al found acid-fast bacteria closely related to tuberculosis (TB) and atypical tuberculosis in AIDS tissue. On the other hand molecular biologist and virologist Duesberg, who originally defined retroviral ultrastructure, has made it clear that HIV is not the cause of AIDS and that the so-called AIDS retrovirus has never been isolated in its pure state. Dr. Etienne de Harven, first to examine retroviruses under the electron, agrees. In 1993 HIV co-discoverer Luc Montagnier reported on cell-wall-deficient (CWD) bacteria which he called �mycoplasma� in AIDS tissue. He suspected these as a necessary �co-factor� for AIDS. Remarkably, Montagnier remained silent on Cantwell�s reports of acid-fast bacteria which could simulate �mycoplasma� in AIDS tissue. Mattman makes clear that the differentiation between mycoplasma and CWD bacteria is difficult at best and cites Pachas�s 1985 study wherein one mycoplasma was actually mistaken for a CWD form of a bacterium closely related to the mycobacteria.
It is important to realize that the statement �HIV is the sole cause of AIDS� is just a hypothesis. There are unanswered questions and controversy concerning the role of HIV �as the sole cause of AIDS.� And until they are resolved, a cure is not possible. This paper explores the possible role of acid-fast tuberculous mycobacteria as �primary agents� in AIDS. |
You cite a paper from the journal of medical hypotheses which is a non peer reviewed journal. May as well cite the National Enquirer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Hypotheses |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I beg your pardon?
The ironic thing is you used Wikipedia of all things to discredit me!
You're a regular riot, Alice. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
I beg your pardon?
The ironic thing is you used Wikipedia of all things to discredit me!
You're a regular riot, Alice. |
Do you dispute the accuracy of wiki's description of this journal as not being peer reviewed? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Evidence you simply hand wave away evidence. You never addressed this pointed evidence against your claim. I'll repeat:
| bacasper wrote: |
| No, you wouldn't. It would just have to be introduced into the target populations. |
Well viruses eventually mutate into less harmful pathogens. It doesn't do much good when your host is killed off. It's why, for example, chimps can be hepped up with all kinds of SIVs and not die.
| Quote: |
| Has HIV even been isolated? It hadn't yet when I last paid attention. According to Etienne de Harven, MD, is Emeritus Professor of Pathology, University of Toronto; he has been a member of the Sloan Kettering Institute (New York), HIV HAS NEVER BEEN ISOLATED FROM AIDS PATIENTS |
Odd that you can see photos of the HIV virus:
http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/hardin/md/cdc/948.html
or here
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm81ai.html
or here
http://student.britannica.com/eb/art-17676/False-colour-scanning-electron-micrograph-of-a-T-lymphocyte-infected
or here
http://www.virology.net/Big_Virology/BVretro.html
Odd that they've been able to sequence HIV DNA. Where do you think they're getting the virus to sequence if they're not isolating it from patients?
Odd this paper claims it was isolated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11522190?dopt=AbstractPlus
Odd if I do a pubmed search on hiv and isolated I get 5370 hits. Not isolated? Can you find a scientific paper that makes this claim? Must be one by 2008 saying "and odd we've never isolated this virus. It's a major area for future research." Real science papers suggest stuff like that.
Odd the NIH disagrees with your medical opinion:
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm
| Quote: |
HIV can be detected in virtually everyone with AIDS.
Recently developed sensitive testing methods, including the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and improved culture techniques, have enabled researchers to find HIV in patients with AIDS with few exceptions. HIV has been repeatedly isolated from the blood, semen and vaginal secretions of patients with AIDS, findings consistent with the epidemiologic data demonstrating AIDS transmission via sexual activity and contact with infected blood (Hammer et al. J Clin Microbiol 1993;31:2557; Jackson et al. J Clin Microbiol 1990;28:16).
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Do you still claim HIV has not been isolated? Got anything other than a blog?
[/quote]
Would you have a link to an actual recent scientific paper that makes that claim, not a left wing magazine? I'm not sure if you read the article but its citing papers from 1984. I hope you can agree science changes a lot in 24 years. What we thought a quarter century ago might not be what we think today.
I don't know if you were paying more attention but I've linked recent Nature papers that clearly demonstrate it's related to SIV. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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mm2: You sure have an inordinate amount of interest in the answers of someone from whom you have never heard anything intelligent.
As long as you feel that way, don't waste your time asking, and I won't waste mine answering. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
mm2: You sure have an inordinate amount of interest in the answers of someone from whom you have never heard anything intelligent.
As long as you feel that way, don't waste your time asking, and I won't waste mine answering. |
Because you can't. It's okay to admit you lost. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
mm2: You sure have an inordinate amount of interest in the answers of someone from whom you have never heard anything intelligent.
As long as you feel that way, don't waste your time asking, and I won't waste mine answering. |
Because you can't. It's okay to admit you lost. |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
And I followed up your follow-up. You really ought to doublecheck the journal in question with someone other than Wikipedia of all things. |
I did. It's not peer reviewed. Do you challenge the validity of the wiki claim? Evidence? Sorry, you've got nothing. |
So the journal is lying when they write this?
| Quote: |
| The section "Articles in Press" contains peer reviewed accepted articles to be published in this journal. |
You go with Wikipedia. I'm going with the journal. |
What you're reading is the boiler plate put on all such pages. If you go to the actual journal itself you will see they admit they don't peer review.
http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/623059/description#description |
How about the JOURNAL OF INDEPENDENT MEDICAL RESEARCH? Do you deny they are peer reviewed?
From Is HIV a virus-like form of acid-fast Tuberculosis-type bacteria? in the March 4, 2008 issue:
Other "dissident" scientists, |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
mm2: You sure have an inordinate amount of interest in the answers of someone from whom you have never heard anything intelligent.
As long as you feel that way, don't waste your time asking, and I won't waste mine answering. |
Because you can't. It's okay to admit you lost. |
And it's okay to admit you really are interested in my answers, or that you are unable to apologize. It takes a big man to apologize.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
And I followed up your follow-up. You really ought to doublecheck the journal in question with someone other than Wikipedia of all things. |
I did. It's not peer reviewed. Do you challenge the validity of the wiki claim? Evidence? Sorry, you've got nothing. |
So the journal is lying when they write this?
| Quote: |
| The section "Articles in Press" contains peer reviewed accepted articles to be published in this journal. |
You go with Wikipedia. I'm going with the journal. |
What you're reading is the boiler plate put on all such pages. If you go to the actual journal itself you will see they admit they don't peer review.
http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/623059/description#description |
How about the JOURNAL OF INDEPENDENT MEDICAL RESEARCH? Do you deny they are peer reviewed?
From Is HIV a virus-like form of acid-fast Tuberculosis-type bacteria? in the March 4, 2008 issue:
| Quote: |
| Other "dissident" scientists, headed by molecular biologist and virologist Peter Duesberg, claim that HIV is not the cause of AIDS, and that the so-called AIDS retrovirus has not been isolated in its "pure state." |
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