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Did Three Rivers Gorge Dam Cause The Earthquake?
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Safron



Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Location: portland, or

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Did Three Rivers Gorge Dam Cause The Earthquake? Reply with quote

The theory is pretty simple. Put an enormous amount of new weight upon the crust of the Earth, and it sinks (creating earthquakes), and changes magma convection currents (causing earthquakes). The earthquake epicenter is 100 miles away from 3RG. The largest dam in the world! There's an established pattern of new reservoir's creating earthquakes. There's tons of academic discussion on this online search "reservoir induced earthquake". Why isn't the media/anyone picking up on this? Idea
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: Did Three Rivers Gorge Dam Cause The Earthquake? Reply with quote

Safron wrote:
Why isn't the media/anyone picking up on this? Idea


-because the developers don't want to halt their money-making projects for the sake of protecting the environment.

Most "natural disasters" are actually human caused- directly or indirectly.

A freak localised "tidal wave" 2 weeks ago at Gunsan killed several people. The cause? Only the worlds biggest coastal reclamation project and tidal barrier constructed at Saemangeum, a few miles away.

Meddling with and changing overnight, the planets natural environments (that have taken a long time to reach their equilibrium)- because some businessman in the city has a bright idea of how to re-model the environment- usually has disastrous consequences.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why isn't the media/anyone picking up on this?


Because the very notion is kook-driven?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I could have edited the above, I don't mind admitting I could be wrong (unlike Junior).

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vu4u79euw6w01unx/

Quote:
A review of case histories of reservoir-induced seismicity (RIS) in China shows that it mainly occurs in granitic and karst terranes. Seismicity in granitic terranes is mainly associated with pore pressure diffusion whereas in karst terranes the chemical effect of water appears to play a major role in triggering RIS. In view of the characteristic features of RIS in China, we can expect moderate earthquakes to be induced by the construction of the Three Gorges Project on the Yangtze River.


The OP did suggest googling however he might have actually put some actual links to support his claims.
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
I don't mind admitting I could be wrong


Thats nice to hear, Mr man.

By the way, its really not that hard to find evidence to back up any claim you wish.

"Recent informations indicate that large dams and storage reservoirs may cause earthquakes"

Systematic observations and investigation of eventual effects of storage reservoir on induced sesmicity was initiated with construction of the system of hydroelectric power plants on the Trebi쉗jica River, one of the largest subterranean karst river in Europe. It sinks undergound in Popovo Polje after a course of about 100 km, with outflowing either close to the Adriatic Sea or at the Neretva River. By creating the reservoir (V = 1,3 *10**9 m3) the Trebi쉗jica River Springs were flooded by 77 m. The construction of Gran?revo Arch Dam ( 123 m high) started in 1960., foundation excavations initiated in 1964. Special highly sensitive seismographs have be put in operation on Febuary 6, 1965. Filling of the reservoir began on November 1, 1967. Filling of the reservoir causes changes in seismic activity evenat great distances from the reservoir (75 km). The seismic activity measured by the number and total released energy of eartquakes increased after start of filling of the reservoir. A noticeable increase in seismic activity has occured for the reservoir depths of over 6o m. During the initial cycles of loading and unloading of the reservoir, the seismic activity is evidently affected by reservoir levels.

http://www.mzos.hr/svibor/2/11/004/proj_e.htm

And thats peer-reviewed.

So lets begin the countdown to Mindmetoo's admission of stupidity. Laughing
10, 9, 8, 7, 6,

Hold on, I guess starting at 1,000,000,000 would be more realistic.
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postfundie



Joined: 28 May 2004

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Meddling with and changing overnight, the planets natural environments (that have taken a long time to reach their equilibrium)- because some businessman in the city has a bright idea of how to re-model the environment- usually has disastrous conse


yeah nature has been so nice to us so far.....good thing there were no earthquakes in China before they started building that 3 gorges damn...
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julius wrote:
So lets begin the countdown to Mindmetoo's admission of stupidity. Laughing
10, 9, 8, 7, 6,

Hold on, I guess starting at 1,000,000,000 would be more realistic.


Uhhhhhhh it might have missed your amazing powers of observation, Junior, but I was initially skeptical (most big quakes are quickly followed by loopy claims) but after googling, I do agree with the OP's claim that there can well be a link between a dam and seismic activity.

What issue do you have, now?

And as we've found out in our evolution thread, there actually is no evidence for everything. For example, there's zero evidence for creationism.
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
I was initially skeptical (most big quakes are quickly followed by loopy claims) but after googling, I do agree with the OP's claim that there can well be a link between a dam and seismic activity.


I, Mindmetoo, admit to my stupidity and over-eagerness to debunk all common sense. I apologise for my persistent habit of trying to look like a smartie by consistently being contrary to what is obvious. Instead of championing what is obviously wrong, I will now become a reasonable person. Once again, sorry for all the silliness I have caused in the course of having too much time on my hands.

Signed (Mindmetoo) __________________
Date: ___________

Witnessed by: Julius and the Daves eslcafe community.
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desultude



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was rather hoping for the opposite effect- I wanted to see 3 Gorges crumble (without hurting a lot of people!) as an effect of the earthquake.
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julius wrote:
mindmetoo wrote:
I was initially skeptical (most big quakes are quickly followed by loopy claims) but after googling, I do agree with the OP's claim that there can well be a link between a dam and seismic activity.


I, Mindmetoo, admit to my stupidity and over-eagerness to debunk all common sense. I apologise for my persistent habit of trying to look like a smartie by consistently being contrary to what is obvious. Instead of championing what is obviously wrong, I will now become a reasonable person. Once again, sorry for all the silliness I have caused in the course of having too much time on my hands.

Signed (Mindmetoo) __________________
Date: ___________

Witnessed by: Julius and the Daves eslcafe community.



Should I have made one of these for you in that other thread? For a guy who was proved unambiguously wrong in one of his statements, you seem awful eager to rub other peoples noses in it.

BTW being skeptical before the evidence is perfectly reasonable.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julius wrote:
mindmetoo wrote:
I was initially skeptical (most big quakes are quickly followed by loopy claims) but after googling, I do agree with the OP's claim that there can well be a link between a dam and seismic activity.


I, Mindmetoo, admit to my stupidity and over-eagerness to debunk all common sense. I apologise for my persistent habit of trying to look like a smartie by consistently being contrary to what is obvious. Instead of championing what is obviously wrong, I will now become a reasonable person. Once again, sorry for all the silliness I have caused in the course of having too much time on my hands.

Signed (Mindmetoo) __________________
Date: ___________

Witnessed by: Julius and the Daves eslcafe community.


Bahahahahahahahaha. First you don't grasp what I'm saying and now you're trying to cover ass. Loser.
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Zolt



Joined: 18 May 2006

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an interesting hypothesis but I just don't buy it.

Large construction projects have been known or suspected to trigger minor tremors (magnitude 3-4), especially when they're sitting right atop old fault lines, but the relationship between magnitude and energy is exponential, not linear. That means the raw power involved in the south china quake was several thousand times beyond anything the dam could have caused. The building of the dam may have at most hastened the tremor, but the pent-up energy must have been already there and would have blown up sooner than later.

Magnitude 8 quake means about 2e19 Joule, or about 4 billion tons of TNT that's 40 units of the largest thermonuclear weapon ever built. Basically you wouldnt have had a blast that big if you had filled the whole dam with TNT.

Interesting but useless facts: while checking these numbers, I found out that the Richter scale goes up to 12 (which is the Earth breaking apart to the core), and that is equivalent to 160 trillion tons of TNT, or about as much energy as the sun shines down on the Earth in a single day. �O�
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zolt wrote:
The building of the dam may have at most hastened the tremor, but the pent-up energy must have been already there and would have blown up sooner than later.


My main point is that the Dam has been harmful to the environment, wether or not it was responsible for the quake. While dams have been shown to cause seismic activity, that is not exactly the main reason to oppose this particular project. The real reasons are simply the massive damage to local water system and its lifeforms. The dam is likely to cause the extinction of several fish , birds, etc.

My more general point is that when developers who have no knowledge or care about the enivironment sit in an office and decide to concrete everything to make themselves some cash, there is usually damage to the environment and various adverse consequences.

A case in point: the catastrophe at New orleans. This was caused because developers have spent the last few decades altering, building on, and otherwise ruining the Loisiana swamps to the point where they no longer acted as a natural sea defence.
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Czarjorge



Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultude wrote:
I was rather hoping for the opposite effect- I wanted to see 3 Gorges crumble (without hurting a lot of people!) as an effect of the earthquake.


I remember as a little kid, maybe eight or nine, learning about US geography. We learned about a variety of major US cities. New Orleans was one of these and as a little kid I was convinced that it was just a matter of time before all the dead bodies in mausoleums floated away during a flood. What can I say? I loved macabre crap as a kid.

I mention it because I thought the same thing the first time I heard of 3 Gorges. What happens when it goes? It's one of the main reasons I don't think China plans any military adventurism any time soon. If I was a country opposing China's military it would be the first thing I hit. Cutting the head off the dragon, if you will.

some maps showing 3 gorges and the yangtze...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.threegorgesprobe.org/TgP/images/lg_map_home.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.threegorgesprobe.org/TgP/images/lg_map_page.html&h=320&w=500&sz=29&tbnid=beRYQ8THPnQJ:&tbnh=83&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthree%2Bgorges%2Bdam%2Bmap&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=2
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Julius



Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alaska Science Forum
November 10, 1999
Giant Chinese Dam May Cause Earth to Move
"A catastrophic failure of the dam would be perhaps the single most destructive event in human history," said Freymueller, a professor of geophysics.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF14/1465.html


The Three Gorges Dam is situated near six active fault lines and above 15 million people. A dam burst at Three Gorges would, says engineer Philip Williams, president of the San Francisco-based International Rivers Network, �rank as one of history�s worst man-made disasters.�

earthquakes between 6.0 and 6.5 are expected once the reservoir is filled in 2009.

Over 700 million tons of sediment are deposited into the Yangtze annually, making it the fourth largest sediment carrier in the world. The Chinese officials have decided to halt the flow of sediment higher up in the Yangtze tributaries by building four smaller dams, including one that will be second only to the Three Gorges in size. What will happen when sediment builds up behind these dams? There is little to address the primary source of flooding: the loss of forest cover in the Yangtze watershed, and the loss of 13,000 square km of lakes which stored excess water but now contain the topsoil from the lost forest cover.
http://katabasis.cementhorizon.com/archives/001604.html

researchers were surprised to see that the dam affected rainfall over such a large area - a 62-square-mile region - rather than just 6 miles projected in previous studies.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/three_gorges_effects.php

Of the 3,000 to 4,000 remaining critically endangered Siberian Crane, a large number currently spend the winter in wetlands that will be destroyed by the Three Gorges Dam. The dam also contributed to the functional extinction of the Baiji, the Yangtze river dolphin. In addition, populations of the Yangtze sturgeon are guaranteed to be "negatively affected" by the dam. There are high levels of pollution currently in the Yangtze. Over one billion tons of wastewater are released annually into the river.[53] The dam will significantly decrease the river's flushing capacity and the pollution ratings will increase. For the current amount of pollution, there is an estimated cost of 2.8 billion Yuan to clean the river.

While logging in the area was required for construction which adds to erosion, stopping the periodic and uncontrolled flooding of the river will lessen bank erosion in the long run. The build up of silt in the reservoir will, however, reduce the amount of silt transported by the Yangtze River to the Yangtze Delta and could reduce the effectiveness of the dam for electricity generation and, perhaps more importantly, the lack of silt deposited in the peninsula could result in erosion and sinking of coastal areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam

So there you havit: pros and cons. But if an earthquake above 7 on the richter scale hits the dam, 15 million people will be in immediate danger.
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