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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gopher"]Again, I see this suspect's allegations and story, which you take at face-value and uncritically, resonate with your worldview. But what facts do you take from this story, Catman?
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Here is what I see and the cross-examination I would like to subject him to that 60 Minutes did not: American and allied forces detained German Muslim Murat Kurnaz in Pakistan, where he was "learning about Islam." Where exactly? What program exactly? Why did he need to go to Pakistan so urgently, and why did 9/11 and the American war in Afghanistan not concern him? |
Um he said to study Islam. And he (gasp) had a beard. So?
Guess what. The US government thought he was innocent too. It was in the article more than once and so I'm surprised you overlooked it.
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Azmy is a professor at the Seton Hall Law School. He dug into the case and found that the military seemed to have invented some of the charges. Military prosecutors said one of Kurnaz�s friends was a suicide bomber, but the friend turned up alive and well in Germany.
"How could they have gotten that so wrong? I mean, you're either a suicide bomber or you're not. There's no in between," Pelley remarks.
"This goes to the utter preposterousness of the government�s legal process that they established in Guantanamo, this tribunal system that was supposed to differentiate from enemy combatant and civilian. So in order to justify that he was an enemy combatant, they simply made up an allegation about someone he was associated with," Azmy says.
But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered.
Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."
At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz�s innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."
But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.
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Unless you are going to continue on the premise of "guilty until proven innocent" I don't know what more you want with this guy? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm off for the night but I suggest taking a look at the "Tipton Three". There was a good documentary made on them called "The Road to Guantanamo". |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I want more than a press account, Catman.
| catman wrote: |
| Um he said... |
This is why I am treating this dismissively. All you care to hear is what people who make allegations say. You do not apply any critical-thinking tests to it at all, just so long as it rings true re: the world that you know.
Unfortunate. But that is par for the course for the antiAmerican left. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Just curious as to what more you need to dispel your suspicion gopher. Both the US and German authoriites said that he had no connection to terrorism and yet he was held for what? Two more years? While his claims of torture have yet to be proven, you cannot deny that his freedom was taken away. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yawarakaijin: where are you getting your information on this? If your understanding rests entirely on Catman's press account, see my comments, immediately above yours. Also, do you have the answers to the questions I asked at the bottom of the third page, above? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Both US and German authorities said he was innocent. He was released without charge. Yet, you still refuse to admit that he was innocent.
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In a landmark congression-al hearing Tuesday, former Guant�namo detainee Murat Kurnaz described abuses he said he endured while in US custody � among them electric shock, simulated drowning, and days spent chained by his arms to the ceiling of an airplane hangar.
Lawmakers were also provided with recently declassified reports, which show that US and German intelligence agencies had determined as early as 2002 that Mr. Kurnaz had no known links to terrorism. Still, he was held for four more years.
Kurnaz's testimony to Congress, via videolink, as well as a report released Wednesday showing that FBI agents were troubled by the harsh interrogations at Guant�namo, are the latest signs of growing concerns in the United States about the prison camp, which has become emblematic of what many around the world see as American excess in the war on terrorism.
Nowhere was the disquiet more evident than in lawmakers' responses. Politicians on both sides of the aisle, who had once accepted Pentagon assurances that those held at Guant�namo were the "worst of the worst," reacted with outrage and regret to Kurnaz's statements, which were broadcast from his hometown of Bremen, Germany.
Rep. William Delahunt (D) of Massachusetts, who chaired the hearing, said Kurnaz's account � denied by Pentagon officials � was something "every patriotic American should find repugnant."
Even Dana Rohrabacher, a stalwart Republican and defender of the Guant�namo prison system, voiced concern, saying, "It could be after seeing those buildings go down and 3,000 of our people were slaughtered, we moved so quickly that some mistakes were made.... The documents seem to indicate mistakes were made in this case."
Among the documents given to lawmakers is a May 2003 report from Brittain Mallow, the commanding general at the time of the Criminal Investigation Task Force, a Pentagon intelligence unit that interrogates and collects information on detainees. It notes, "CITF is not aware of evidence that Kurnaz was or is a member of al-Qaida."
Another memo, from German intelligence agents who interrogated Kurnaz under CIA supervision in 2002, reads, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz's innocence to be proven."
'Innocent' but not set free
The papers are only the latest batch to surface in Kurnaz's case, where the record clearly shows that he was repeatedly designated an enemy combatant despite evidence of his innocence.
Much of the testimony given by Kurnaz, the first former Guant�namo detainee to appear before Congress, focused on his treatment at Kandahar Air Base in Afghanistan, where he was taken after being arrested in Pakistan in December 2001. While there, he said was subjected to "water treatment," which involved having his head dunked in a water-filled bucket. "They stick my head in the water and at the same time they punched me in the stomach so I had to inhale the water," he said, using English he picked up in detention.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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In wartime, information comes to us filtered through all kinds of processes, usually propagandistic. You are failing to take this into account as well as failing to critically evaluate your own motives in being so quick to accept that which you want to accept about this "story."
What do you have besides press accounts, and now, politicians' on-the-record statements about "patriotic Americans," etc.?
And, finally, back to this thread's story, is it your position that this "story" that you have found decisively or at least mostly explains why some of those released from Cuba return to the battlefield, where they were originally picked up...? Because that would be laughable. As your own information indicates, these people were drawn there immediately after 9/11, well before American forces invaded Iraq.
What was drawing these people there originally, Catman? Just innocent people looking "to study Islam," is it? Naive. |
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bookemdanno
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher noted:
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| This is why I am treating this dismissively. All you care to hear is what people who make allegations say. You do not apply any critical-thinking tests to it at all, just so long as it rings true re: the world that you know. |
B-I-N-G-O
P.S. I think you could have a more informed discussion with his cat. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
In wartime, information comes to us filtered through all kinds of processes, usually propagandistic. You are failing to take this into account as well as failing to critically evaluate your own motives in being so quick to accept that which you want to accept about this "story."
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Again, both US and German authorities said he was innocent.
What is it about this statement that you don't accept? Do you think that the media is making this up? Do you think that US and German intelligence were lying? Please explain this to me. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| bookemdanno wrote: |
| B-I-N-G-O |
Thank you. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Yawarakaijin: where are you getting your information on this? If your understanding rests entirely on Catman's press account, see my comments, immediately above yours. Also, do you have the answers to the questions I asked at the bottom of the third page, above? |
If we are referring to German Muslim Murat Kurnaz, I believe it was clearly shown, in the 60 minutes piece, that he was held for 2 years AFTER officials deemed him innocent of any and all charges. I am not an investigative journalist, none of us are. If you have doubts on the veracity of 60 minutes claims/reporting please outline them.
Unfortuntely I am at work and am unable to view the piece again. If my memory has failed, I have no problem with being corrected.
Just curious. Is it possible this man was held for so long because he did in fact travel to Pakistan for nefarious purposes. Is it possible he was released because his admission of guilt, in regards to travelling to pakistan or afghanistan, was coerced through torture?
A very likely scenario I envisage is that perhaps he did go to pakistan to join up with al-qaeda or the Taliban. He was caught up in events, the American invasion, before he could really make any connections or join any resistance/terrorist organization. Subsequently he was tortured into a confession. I would theorize that officials then made a call. Ok, so we captured some guy who was on his way to join the Tablian. He never got the oppurtunity to actually join up or take up arms, nor did he make any contacts inside al-qaeda.
Now the administration has a call. Charge him and risk allegations of torture coming out, possibly giving the administration yet another black eye in regard to detainee treatment.. all to imprison a guy who was "trying" to join up with the Taliban and didn't possess any actionable intelligence. Or keep him locked up as "punishment" for a few years, knowing his original intentions, but unable or unwilling to accept the damage a trial could do to the administration. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
[
If we are referring to German Muslim Murat Kurnaz, I believe it was clearly shown, in the 60 minutes piece, that he was held for 2 years AFTER officials deemed him innocent of any and all charges. I am not an investigative journalist, none of us are. If you have doubts on the veracity of 60 minutes claims/reporting please outline them.
Unfortuntely I am at work and am unable to view the piece again. If my memory has failed, I have no problem with being corrected.
Just curious. Is it possible this man was held for so long because he did in fact travel to Pakistan for nefarious purposes. Is it possible he was released because his admission of guilt, in regards to travelling to pakistan or afghanistan, was coerced through torture?
A very likely scenario I envisage is that perhaps he did go to pakistan to join up with al-qaeda or the Taliban. He was caught up in events, the American invasion, before he could really make any connections or join any resistance/terrorist organization. Subsequently he was tortured into a confession. I would theorize that officials then made a call. Ok, so we captured some guy who was on his way to join the Tablian. He never got the oppurtunity to actually join up or take up arms, nor did he make any contacts inside al-qaeda.
Now the administration has a call. Charge him and risk allegations of torture coming out, possibly giving the administration yet another black eye in regard to detainee treatment.. all to imprison a guy who was "trying" to join up with the Taliban and didn't possess any actionable intelligence. Or keep him locked up as "punishment" for a few years, knowing his original intentions, but unable or unwilling to accept the damage a trial could do to the administration. |
Very good analysis |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Is it possible this man...? |
Nice speculation. Not implausible. Not bad at all. But we still do not really know.
Also, perhaps American forces released and will continue to release some of these "innocent" people to see how they communicate with their friends once free, who exactly they hook up with, where they go, etc.. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: ... |
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Again, both US and German authorities said he was innocent.
What is it about this statement that you don't accept? Do you think that the media is making this up? Do you think that US and German intelligence were lying? Please explain this to me. |
No explanation, eh? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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Again, both US and German authorities said he was innocent.
What is it about this statement that you don't accept? Do you think that the media is making this up? Do you think that US and German intelligence were lying? Please explain this to me. |
No explanation, eh? |
None yet. |
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