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Obama resigns from his church
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Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Obama resigns from his church

Obama quits Chicago church after long controversy ABERDEEN, S.D. - Barack Obama said Saturday he has resigned his 20-year membership in the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago "with some sadness" in the aftermath of inflammatory remarks by his longtime pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and more recent fiery remarks at the church by a visiting priest. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/ap_on_el_pr/obama This is too bad it came to this, but is probably the smart thing to do politically.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Obama resigns from his church

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

This is too bad it came to this, but is probably the smart thing to do politically.

Eh, too little too late. This vindicates Rev. Wright's proclamation that 'what Obama says, he says as a politician.' Of course, this is true of every of the candidates, but I get the feeling some Obama supporters feel Obama is more than a politician. He's not. Here's evidence #34 that the New Politics is very similar to the Old.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Obama resigns from his church

Kuros wrote:

I get the feeling some Obama supporters feel Obama is more than a politician. He's not.

I'm guilty as charged, and a bit disappointed. His speech in Philadelphia was a masterpiece, and it's already being taught in rhetoric classes. Leaving the congregation says a few things that are unsettling.

1. To the wingnut whackjobs on the right, it says "You can make me move in any direction if you try to hurt me or my family enough."

2. To the black community, it says, "I'm not as black as you think I am, and I will sell you out if I have to."

3. To the rest of us, it says,"Don't hold your breath expecting miracles, or hoping I really will be different from other politicians, because I simply want this too much."

Here's the part that really makes my heart drop:

Quote:

"It's clear that now that I'm a candidate for president, every time something is said in the church by anyone associated with Trinity, including guest pastors, the remarks will imputed to me even if they totally conflict with my long-held views, statements and principles," he said.

Why does the left have to deal with Rev Wright and behave as if it were important - and why is the religious right not equally-pilloried for having the likes if Falwell and Robertson who looked America right in the eyes and blamed 9/11 on gays?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject:

CNN Reports wrote:

"We don't want to have to answer for everything that's stated in the church," [Barck Obama] the Democratic front-runner said. "We also don't want the church subjected to the scrutiny that a presidential campaign legitimately undergoes."

Obama said he was resigning "with some sadness."

Right decision. Wrong reasons. I remain suspicious of Obama's true, inner worldviews.

This is the way to do it, by the way...

Quote:

Political Leaders Should Not Use Extreme Rhetoric Against Our Federal Law Enforcement Officers: As someone who served in law enforcement for eight years as the Chittenden County State�s Attorney, I empathize with, respect and admire those who devote their careers to public safety. I took issue with the extreme rhetoric that some have used recently to attack our Federal law enforcement officers who helped return Elian Gonzalez to his father.

For example, one of the Republican leaders in the House of Representatives was quoted as calling the officers of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, the U.S. Border Patrol, and the U.S. Marshals Service "jack-booted thugs." And the Mayor of New York City called these dedicated public servants "storm troopers." This extreme rhetoric only serves to degrade Federal law enforcement officers in the eyes of the public.

Let none of us in the Congress, or those seeking to serve in Congress, contribute to an atmosphere of disrespect for law enforcement officers. No matter what your opinion of the law enforcement action in South Florida, we should all agree that these law enforcement officers were following orders and putting their lives on the line, which they do everyday. Let us treat law enforcement officers with the respect that enables officers to preserve the peace and protect the public.

This harsh rhetoric by Republican public officials reminds me of similar harsh rhetoric used by the National Rifle Association. In April 1995, Wayne La Pierre, Vice President of the NRA, sent a fund-raising letter to NRA members calling Federal law enforcement officers "jack-booted thugs" who wear "Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms." Mr. La Pierre was apparently referring to Federal Bureau of Investigation and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents involved in law enforcement actions in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

President George [H.W.] Bush, who was correctly outraged by this NRA rhetoric, promptly resigned from the NRA in protest. At the time in 1995, President Bush wrote to the NRA: "Your broadside against Federal agents deeply offends my own sense of decency and honor.... It indirectly slanders a wide array of government law enforcement officials, who are out there, day and night, laying their lives on the line for all of us." [my emphasis -- g.] I praised President Bush for his actions in 1995 and again recently.

President Bush was right. This harsh rhetoric of calling Federal law enforcement officers "jack-booted thugs" and "storm troopers" should offend our sense of decency and honor. It is highly offensive...

Senator Patrick J. Leahy

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject:

Look, someone's going to say it even if I don't: That's a dumb comparison. I mean, hey, if you want to equate membership in a rifle club with one's spirituality and how they see themselves in relation to other human beings and in relation to their creator, hah, fine. It does stretch credulity a bit, but wouldn't be the first time from your direction. I don't even believe in god but I have more respect for religion that that.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Eh, too little too late. This vindicates Rev. Wright's proclamation that 'what Obama says, he says as a politician.'

Yes, it's possible to look at it that way, but it isn't the only way. There has been another kerfuffle with another minister at that church, a Catholic priest this time, attacking Clinton. This one could take a couple of days to die down, distracting Obama from presenting his ideas and goals for the country.

A candidate needs to present his platform for the country. Irrelevant distractions (and what a minister says in a church is pretty irrelevant to me) use up valuable time.

Here is more on the priest:

Pfleger talks of exposing �white entitlement and supremacy wherever it raises its head, and then theatrically mocks Sen. Hillary Clinton.

He stalks around the stage of Trinity United Church of Christ. He thunders: �When Hillary was crying, and people said that was put on, I really don�t believe it was put on. I really believe that she just always thought, �this is mine! I�m Bill�s wife, I�m white and this is mine! I just gotta get up and step into the plate� and then out of nowhere came, �Hey, I�m Barack Obama,� and she said, �Oh, damn. Where did you come from? I�m white! I�m entitled! There�s a black man stealing my show!� ��

Then he theatrically feigns tears and says, �She wasn�t the only one crying. There were a whole lot of white people crying.�

His words at Trinity showed an astounding lack of decency and good sense. It wasn�t a homily, it was a mocking, self-serving screed.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/vox_pop/2008/05/pflegers-vile-s.html

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

Eh, too little too late. This vindicates Rev. Wright's proclamation that 'what Obama says, he says as a politician.'

I agree with all that. I don't think that the words of Obama's pastors should be taken as representative of Obama's opinions.

But here's the thing: Obama used to find affiliation at that Church valuable. He used to advertise his Church whenever questions about his faith would come up. I have no doubt that Obama's constant reminding of his attendence at an avowedly black Church helped him win 85% of the black vote nationally (although his marriage to a black woman and Oprah's endorsement certainly helped, too). Obama knew his association with Rev. Wright could be risky. But he chose to stand by his Church. Politically speaking, I cannot say it was a bad decision. But was it the best decision?

Well, in a tight nomination, I really think he needed to associate with that Church. It give him real street cred with blacks, while it did not factor one way or the other with many whites (observing that race-conscious whites were either in his corner or not based already on his skin color). But now, the Church has been causing him headaches. So now he dumps association with the Church.

So, its hard for me to wag my finger at Obama. I probably would have acted the same way. But how could this not be considered calculated?

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Irrelevant distractions (and what a minister says in a church is pretty irrelevant to me) use up valuable time.

I think America is probably the only western democracy where a candidate's religious affliation is considered even a little bit relevant. That's ... wierd.

Anyone remember Mario Cuomo? Governor of New York back in the 80s, and a devout Catholic - and a liberal Democrat. He went against the teachings of Rome by supporting abortion rights, saying it was a religious matter that individuals need to decide without sanction from the State, which governs people of many faiths. Then he turned around and blandly explained that the legislature was free to devise a death penalty, and the courts were entitled to convict and sentence accordingly - but that he, as governor, would exercise his perogative to pardon or indfinitely stay executions scheduled while he was in office.

His rationale was the same in both cases, that matters of life and death are outside the purview of the State - ironically, this is a conservative argument, one that tries to limit the role of govt rather than expand it. Except that conservatives don't see it that way, of course.

However, in both cases he was basing his actions on his own heartfelt feelings as an individual, in one case opposing the Bishops and in the other affirming them. He pissed a lot of people off, of course, but memory serves, he was also one of the most popular governors in New York's history and a lot of people tried to get him to run against Dukakis in the primaries.

My only point is that Obama is quitting the church because of what other people are saying about what other people in the church are saying, not due to any change in his own belief system. That disappoints me, and I think others might feel the same.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop. What will the ministers and parishioners of Trinity be saying now (and do you think for a minute the media will stop quoting them)? What will rank-and-file among the black community have to say?

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Obama resigns from his church

Kuros wrote:

Eh, too little too late.

I don't think anything Obama does now would stop him from becoming the next president. Hilary's hoping he slips up but it'll take a far bigger faux pas than this.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But how could this not be considered calculated?

On one hand, 'calculated' can be such a cynical word. I guess I'm not having one of those kinds of days today. I just see it as Obama putting up a firewall before something else happens, or as Bobster says, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I don't want the Election of '08 to go down in history as the one were the theology of some black preachers in some churches was the issue du jour. (I still haven't decided if baptism requires submersion and not just sprinkling.)

On another, at least this time the rightwing nut jobs can't accuse Obama of being a godless leftie. Unfortunately Rev. Wright kinda spoiled what could have been a plus. Too bad he wasn't just a regular hellfire and brimstone preacher who could put the fear of a black God in the uptight Episcopalians.

Anyway, this late in the nomination game, every word that comes out of a candidate's mouth has been scripted, analyzed, polled and planned. (Except for the gaffes) Is that calculated? It's the way presidential politics is after the small states primary/caucases.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Obama resigns from his church

Kuros wrote:

.. some Obama supporters feel Obama is more than a politician. He's not.

For those who have recently joined this board, and others who need reminding about Obama bringing a message of "change" to Washington, I remind you of this:

Quote:

In 2001, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Air Force Gen. Richard Myers said, "It is very clear that Afghanistan is only a small piece of the US campaign that could last more than a lifetime." This ideology has been a barrage articulated not only by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al., it is also the litany coming from the Democratic party, e.g. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

BO said on Sept. 4, 2007: "Hit Iran where it hurts." "Americans need to come together to confront the challenge posed by Iran. The war in Iraq has strengthened Iran which poses for us the greatest strategic challenge in the Middle East in a generation. Iran supports violent groups and sectarians in Iraq. Iran fuels terror and extremism in the Middle East. Iran is making progress on a nuclear program in defiance of the international community. Iran calls for Israel to be wiped off the map." He follows this up by calling for a pre-emptive military strike on Iran.

On Aug. 3, 2007, speaking at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of the International School for Scholars, BO called for a US attack on Pakistan, more troops in Afghanistan, and unilateral attacks on Iran and Pakistan, and strengthening the US military and intelligence apparatus across the planet.

You could not fit a sliver of paper in between the ideologies of Dick Cheney and Barack Obama.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject:

You must remember who is advising Obama on foreign affairs, Bacasper. That is the one who is talking through him in those moments that you have quoted.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Obama resigns from his church

Julius wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Eh, too little too late.

I don't think anything Obama does now would stop him from becoming the next president. Hilary's hoping he slips up but it'll take a far bigger faux pas than this.

Well, people can wonder what Obama was doing with such intolerant clergymen. I suppose, we could say many in the black community know of leaders who seem paranoid and always refer to race.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:23 am Post subject:

Distancing himself from two clergymen within a couple of weeks, I'd say Obama, sin-laden, is being spiritually cavalier, no?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:27 am Post subject:

Heh.

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