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The NETs are NOT doing the Korean economy a favor
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

endo wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
It is really simple folks.

The economy booms when people SPEND money. It goes into recession when people DON'T spend money.

Anyone who's taken macroeconomics knows this because they tell you on day 1.

Consumers spend money -> business make money -> businesses expand -> more jobs -> more people with money -> more people spend more money

Rince and repeat. THAT is how an economy grows.

OP, you are wrong. The economy isn't a 'bucket'.




So is debt (good and bad) also necessary for an economy to work?

You have so many people nowadays purchasing goods on credit. This obviously is contributing to the economy as more goods are purchased when customers are given credit or money outside their current means.


Basically, what I'm trying to find out is weither or not extreme debt is good or bad for an economy?

If everyone paid off their credit cards and cut them up (never to use them again - or at least be able to pay them off every month) would a nations economy be better or worse off?


Extreme debt is a vague term, but OF COURSE debt is necessary for the economy to work. Can you imagine how stunted the economy would be if people couldn't get small business loans? Home loans? Debt is not just credit cards.

Or was that a rhetorical question?

I don't know enough to judge credit cards, but I imagine there's a point where they are more crippling than enabling. Really, by calling it "extreme debt" you've already put a pejorative label on it and your question is almost a tautology.
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bogey666



Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

endo wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
It is really simple folks.

The economy booms when people SPEND money. It goes into recession when people DON'T spend money.

Anyone who's taken macroeconomics knows this because they tell you on day 1.

Consumers spend money -> business make money -> businesses expand -> more jobs -> more people with money -> more people spend more money

Rince and repeat. THAT is how an economy grows.

OP, you are wrong. The economy isn't a 'bucket'.




So is debt (good and bad) also necessary for an economy to work?

You have so many people nowadays purchasing goods on credit. This obviously is contributing to the economy as more goods are purchased when customers are given credit or money outside their current means.


Basically, what I'm trying to find out is weither or not extreme debt is good or bad for an economy?

If everyone paid off their credit cards and cut them up (never to use them again - or at least be able to pay them off every month) would a nations economy be better or worse off?


John Maynard Keynes: Debt is good - if it is repayed in boom times
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumple wrote:


My point is that moosehead's post, where he says

Quote:
there really needs to be a clear understanding - as in visual aids of graphs and charts - as to how many billions of won are contributing to the K economy, much of which comes out of the FT's pocket.

it's not just our salaries, folks, it's the housing we live in, the utilities we pay, the food we buy and the tourism dollars we spend.


Is incorrect. Money paid to NETs that they spend in Korea does not contribute to the Korean economy.

That's pretty much my only point.


Well, in order to make that point, you shouldn't have used that bucket analogy, because it's just not correct. Also, the title of this thread is not correct either.

As far as your point goes, it's true to an extent. We're not directly generating wealth for Korea by buying goods and services. But neither are Koreans. They're just spending Korean money in Korea too. It's only when somebody takes that money and uses it to make something more valuable that we generate wealth. So if the olive importer guy uses our money to build a new warehouse, then we have contributed, but only indirectly.

Where most people directly generate wealth is in the jobs they perform. A guy turns a plate of steel into a car door, etc. And the jobs that teachers peform generate tons of money. Teachers can turn an empty building into a bustling school. So the title of this thread, which indicates that you actually had a larger point, is untrue (unless people are sending away so much money that they are offsetting their contribution).
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loose_ends



Joined: 23 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP is dead wrong.

Anyone, from anywhere, spending money, IS contributing to that economy. PERIOD.

To assume that the only way to contribute to an economy is to bring in foreign investment is not only retarded, but lacks complete common sense. The global economy grows on a daily basis. Where is the money coming from? Aliens?

OP needs to check his attitude at the door as well.
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Rumple



Joined: 19 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: The NETs are NOT doing the Korean economy a favor Reply with quote

Ilsanman wrote:
By your estimation, accepting Korean immigrants to our countries is a bad idea. Let's reject them all.


Where do you get that? I have no idea how you reached that particular conclusion.
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Rumple



Joined: 19 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billybrobby wrote:
Rumple wrote:


My point is that moosehead's post, where he says

Quote:
there really needs to be a clear understanding - as in visual aids of graphs and charts - as to how many billions of won are contributing to the K economy, much of which comes out of the FT's pocket.

it's not just our salaries, folks, it's the housing we live in, the utilities we pay, the food we buy and the tourism dollars we spend.


Is incorrect. Money paid to NETs that they spend in Korea does not contribute to the Korean economy.

That's pretty much my only point.


Well, in order to make that point, you shouldn't have used that bucket analogy, because it's just not correct. Also, the title of this thread is not correct either.

As far as your point goes, it's true to an extent. We're not directly generating wealth for Korea by buying goods and services. But neither are Koreans. They're just spending Korean money in Korea too. It's only when somebody takes that money and uses it to make something more valuable that we generate wealth. So if the olive importer guy uses our money to build a new warehouse, then we have contributed, but only indirectly.

Where most people directly generate wealth is in the jobs they perform. A guy turns a plate of steel into a car door, etc. And the jobs that teachers peform generate tons of money. Teachers can turn an empty building into a bustling school. So the title of this thread, which indicates that you actually had a larger point, is untrue (unless people are sending away so much money that they are offsetting their contribution).


Moosehead was saying that we were doing Korea a great service by spending billions of won here. The title of the thread is a refutation of that idea. We are not doing Korea a favor. We're just circulating the money that's already here. Korea's GDP is not increasing because we're spending money here.
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skeeterses



Joined: 25 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumple,

I think you're misunderstanding economics a little bit and are assuming that all the ESL teachers are merely doing each other's laundry.

If everyone made money by simply doing each other's laundry or cooking meals for each other, it would be a banana republic economy. But Korea does make good products that are very competitive on the export market. But aside from making widgets, an economy does need service workers. In this world, there is always going to be a need for doctors, firefighters, plumbers, and yes Teachers. Division of labor is necessary for an economy to work. While not everyone can be a teacher, it is even more true that even fewer people would be able to fix their own cars.

If everybody was working at a hamburger stand or a laundromat, then you would be right in saying that a service economy doesn't create wealth. After all, anybody can do his/her laundry and cook hamburgers. America's economy with its Walmarts, Big Box Stores, and Fast Food restaurants, and crumbling education and healthcare systems, would make a good case for how a Service Economy can actually drain wealth from a nation. In a lot of other countries like Japan and Europe, the economies have a very good service economy(i.e good healthcare and good educational systems) balanced by a competitive export sector.
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeeterses wrote:
Rumple,

I think you're misunderstanding economics a little bit and are assuming that all the ESL teachers are merely doing each other's laundry.

If everyone made money by simply doing each other's laundry or cooking meals for each other, it would be a banana republic economy. But Korea does make good products that are very competitive on the export market. But aside from making widgets, an economy does need service workers. In this world, there is always going to be a need for doctors, firefighters, plumbers, and yes Teachers. Division of labor is necessary for an economy to work. While not everyone can be a teacher, it is even more true that even fewer people would be able to fix their own cars.

If everybody was working at a hamburger stand or a laundromat, then you would be right in saying that a service economy doesn't create wealth. After all, anybody can do his/her laundry and cook hamburgers. America's economy with its Walmarts, Big Box Stores, and Fast Food restaurants, and crumbling education and healthcare systems, would make a good case for how a Service Economy can actually drain wealth from a nation. In a lot of other countries like Japan and Europe, the economies have a very good service economy(i.e good healthcare and good educational systems) balanced by a competitive export sector.


I read this 3 times but I don't know what you're talking about.
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endo



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billybrobby wrote:
skeeterses wrote:
Rumple,

I think you're misunderstanding economics a little bit and are assuming that all the ESL teachers are merely doing each other's laundry.

If everyone made money by simply doing each other's laundry or cooking meals for each other, it would be a banana republic economy. But Korea does make good products that are very competitive on the export market. But aside from making widgets, an economy does need service workers. In this world, there is always going to be a need for doctors, firefighters, plumbers, and yes Teachers. Division of labor is necessary for an economy to work. While not everyone can be a teacher, it is even more true that even fewer people would be able to fix their own cars.

If everybody was working at a hamburger stand or a laundromat, then you would be right in saying that a service economy doesn't create wealth. After all, anybody can do his/her laundry and cook hamburgers. America's economy with its Walmarts, Big Box Stores, and Fast Food restaurants, and crumbling education and healthcare systems, would make a good case for how a Service Economy can actually drain wealth from a nation. In a lot of other countries like Japan and Europe, the economies have a very good service economy(i.e good healthcare and good educational systems) balanced by a competitive export sector.


I read this 3 times but I don't know what you're talking about.



Really? I thought it made sense.


I think basically what he/she is saying is that you need a paritcularly strong and organized service sector (as well as a strong legal apparatus which I may add) in order for larger corporations and government agencies to fuel economic growth.
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Temporary



Joined: 13 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UGH..

I studied economics thats my degree.

John Maynard Keynes: Debt is good

Keynesian economics stupidist IDEA ever..
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asylum seeker



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some of you are missing the OPs main point.. Money coming in from overseas into a country's economy is a good thing. That's why countries try so hard to encourage direct foreign investment and exports. A country wants to have a net trade surplus with other countries otherwise they will eventually get more and more in debt to other countries.
However when NTs come to Korea they bring almost no money with them and instead tend to send home about half their monthly salaries or use those salaries for travel in other countries. That means that for every NT employed in Korea there is an outflow of money from Korea to the tune of about $10-15 000 per year.
The money you spend in Korea was money that you earned in Korea so this does not equal an inflow into the country's economy as that money was already in the country.
This is pretty clear and unequivocal if you think about it- a NT working in Korea does equal a net outflow of money from the Korean economy into other countries' economies and in terms of current account balances this is not exactly a positive thing.
However, as others have pointed out there are possible significant benefits of having an English-skilled workforce that will, in the long term, (hopefully for them Wink ) offset this short-term loss.
Also in the case of NTs from the US Korea already has such a large trade surplus with the US due to its exports that the NTs' 'remittances' from Korea would be insignificant by comparison.
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

endo wrote:
billybrobby wrote:
skeeterses wrote:
Rumple,

I think you're misunderstanding economics a little bit and are assuming that all the ESL teachers are merely doing each other's laundry.

If everyone made money by simply doing each other's laundry or cooking meals for each other, it would be a banana republic economy. But Korea does make good products that are very competitive on the export market. But aside from making widgets, an economy does need service workers. In this world, there is always going to be a need for doctors, firefighters, plumbers, and yes Teachers. Division of labor is necessary for an economy to work. While not everyone can be a teacher, it is even more true that even fewer people would be able to fix their own cars.

If everybody was working at a hamburger stand or a laundromat, then you would be right in saying that a service economy doesn't create wealth. After all, anybody can do his/her laundry and cook hamburgers. America's economy with its Walmarts, Big Box Stores, and Fast Food restaurants, and crumbling education and healthcare systems, would make a good case for how a Service Economy can actually drain wealth from a nation. In a lot of other countries like Japan and Europe, the economies have a very good service economy(i.e good healthcare and good educational systems) balanced by a competitive export sector.


I read this 3 times but I don't know what you're talking about.



Really? I thought it made sense.


I think basically what he/she is saying is that you need a paritcularly strong and organized service sector (as well as a strong legal apparatus which I may add) in order for larger corporations and government agencies to fuel economic growth.


I understand what he saying, i think, I don't understand the logic behind it. The service economy is draining wealth from America? Wealth isn't being drained from America. And how would a good health care system affect this? And didn't Japan go through a decade long recession (i.e. loss of wealth)?

I don't really know much about economics.
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RJjr



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest factor on whether or not we help or hurt the Korean economy comes down to what kind of return Koreans are getting on their investment in foreign teachers.

Mexican laborers in the United States send a lot of money home to Mexico, but they get paid so little and produce so much. I feel like Mexicans have been great for the American economy.

In contrast, Koreans pay us sums of money that are fairly high, but they're not getting much for their money. Then, most of us send the money to bank acounts outside of Korea. It's almost as if they would do almost as well if they would cut out the middleman and just wire the money to our bank accounts in our countries without even bringing us over to teach. I feel like we're almost that big of a drain on the Korean economy. That being said, it's not our fault. They create the demand and we're just doing the jobs they ask us and pay us to do.
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jkelly80



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't the whole push for foreign investment just mercantilism dressed up for the modern age? I thought that was pretty much repudiated right around Napoleon's time.
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Suwon23



Joined: 24 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a little experiment. Quick, everyone in America, stop buying things. Done? Good, now look at what you've just done to the economy. Sucks pretty bad, doesn't it? Why do economists start shi77ing themselves when consumers stop buying Christmas presents for their kids? the money's still there in the bank, it's just not moving, and that's bad.

So, if foreigners provide an incentive for Koreans to spend money (especially if it raises their children's productivity later), that's good.
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