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| Will we win in Iraq? |
| Yes |
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20% |
[ 8 ] |
| Maybe |
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17% |
[ 7 ] |
| No |
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61% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 39 |
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Message |
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| When I was in Vietnam, one of my thoughts was, "Our government completely threw away the lives of over 50,000 Americans to prevent this?" The Vietnamese aren't dangerous people, no matter how many hammer & sickle flags flap in the wind there. |
Everheard of boat people? Wonder why they left.
Anyway what is the difference between Korea and the Vietnam war?
The Soviet Union was out to overthrow every pro US government and eventually had it in mind to destroy the US either by revolution or nuclear first strike. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
The ideology accross the middle east, however, is engulfing whole nations. This is the greatest threat to not only your 'American dream', but the world.
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Link? Middle Eastern country's have been Islamic for a long time, and the ideaology hasn't changed much. There is no engulfing being done there. Which nations are being engulfed and please supply evidence to show how so.
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| Forced burqas, banned alcohol, death for gays, death for freedom of religion, and political oppression are traits of entire continents. And you're fine with this?? You call this small potatoes? |
Yes it is small potatoes. The US didn't invade the soviet Union when it had concentration camps everywhere. Christ, China qualifies for lack of freedom and religion, political oppression, and torture. Should we invade China? After all, there are 1 billion people in china. Alot of people to be saved.
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| As for conquering most of the world, who do you think is paying for the biggest mosque in the world, in London? Who do you think pays for madrasas all over the world? Who funds cair? Who spread their ideology with the sword? |
none of these things above involve engulfing entire nations. After all its hard to engulf entire nations with only a sword.
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Guess how many people are killed in every country where islam meets democracy. |
I don't know..link?
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This is no comparison to Nazism; the Islamic ideology is MUCH more dangerous |
In terms of death toll? Naziism was in power in Germany for roughly 12 years. Has Islam murdered 5 million(conservative estimate) jews in the last 12 years? Have they conquered a whole continent in the last twelve years? Not building mosques..actually physically conquered a continent?
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Sudan, Iran-iraq war, Somalia, Bosnia, and thousands of suicide bombings are symptoms. Let's treat the disease.
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How? By forcibly converting people? Spreading democracy by invading peoples countries is unlikely to work. Look at Vietnam in the 1960s and look at it now. Maybe staying the hell away has got a better shot at spreading democracy.
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Except for that whole city of kurds Saddam killed. And except for invading Kuwait. And except for killing civilians with mustard gas and invading Iran. |
Petty wars with neighboring countries do not = dire consequences.
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| I think that it is the responsibility of the west to try! Stop passing the buck! Whose life is more valuable; an Iraqi or an American?? I am of the firm beleif that they are both of equal value! I am willing to sacrifice my life and the lives of 4000 of my fellow Americans in order to TRY and make life better for millions in the middle east. Are you willing to TRY?? |
I'm pretty sure the risk of death shot up for an Iraqi after the Americans entered Iraq. There has been up to 1 million iraqis killed in the last 5 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
Are you fighting in Iraq now?
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Right, only Kuwait and Iran.
why did those soldiers sign up?
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Kuwait and Iran(!) are part of the US? It is the US mandate to invade every country that invades a neighboring country? Those soldiers signed up to be thrown on the scrapheap by their own government in pointless wars. Basically what soldiers have always done.
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| So, you only care as long as the US is attacked directly? How selfish; do you not care about the millions who are oppressed in the middle east? |
I would care more if Ireland was attacked directly. I care about the people being oppressed in China and the middle east and around the world. I don't advocate invading these countries however as it is obviously counter productive.
If you advocate attacking Iraq, then China must be next? A billion people are being oppressed there. Why hasn;t the US attacked yet. surely you are willing to sacrifice your lives?
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| I am willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for freedom; ie; building schools and doing humanitarian work, or to ensure a better life for the oppressed, regardless of their nationality. |
Building schools in the ultimate sacrifice? My Uncle does big contruction jobs in the North of England..man must be a saint.
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| Please dispense with the insults. |
Nope. anyway one compares Islam to Nazism and quotes George bush to back him up is either drunk or not all there. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder if Obama will have the courage to attack the myth of the surge success? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| That this�his pro-American moment�was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled�Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more�the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported�and the David Kay report had established�that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.) |
http://www.slate.com/id/2102723/
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Secondary Level of Mass Murderers:
Obviously, we're going to run into the same vagueries and uncertainties when we try to rank numbers 4 through 10 on the list of the 20th Century's worst killers, but at least we can nominate the candidates. A pretty good case could be made that each of the following rulers (listed alphabetically) were responsible for over a million unjust, unnecessary or unnatural deaths by initiating or intensifying war, famine, democide or resettlement, or by allowing people under their control to do so:
Chiang Kai-shek (China: 1928-49 )
Enver Pasha (Turkey: 1913-18 )
Hirohito (Japan: 1926-89 )
Hirota Koki (Japan: 1936-37 )
Ho Chi Minh (North Vietnam: 1945-69 )
Kim Il Sung (North Korea: 1948-94 )
Lenin (USSR: 1917-24)
Leopold II (Belgium: 1865-1909 )
Nicholas II (Russia: 1894-1917 )
Pol Pot (Cambodia: 1975-79 )
Saddam Hussein (Iraq: 1969- )
Tojo Hideki (Japan: 1941-44)
Wilhelm II (Germany: 1888-1918 )
Yahya Khan (Pakistan: 1969-71 ) |
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Of course we can win this war! Look at how well we're doing right now!
Such wonderful progress!
Crooksandliars.com
*Time: Nearly 20% Of Soldiers In Iraq, Afghanistan On Anti-Depressants
*Iraq Intelligence Report Phase 2: Bush Administration Lied About Pre-Invasion Intelligence
*Australia No Longer Part of The �Coalition of the Willing�
*Top McCain Fundraiser, War Profiteer Sued Over Iraq Fuel Deal
*Azzaman Iraq;
| Quote: |
Demands like these are not only unacceptable but are in a sense meant to punish Iraqis for the destruction and devastation U.S.-waged invasion and occupation of their country has caused.
Does it mean that the U.S. Congress wants us to pay billions of dollars for the reconstruction of bridges, hospitals, schools as well as cities, towns and villages U.S. warplanes and military might have destroyed? (snip)
Iraqis have been made to pay with their blood which has been flowing like rivers since the U.S. invasion. And shockingly the U.S. would like them to pay for the destruction it has inflicted on their country as if their blood is not enough.
The U.S. is morally responsible for the construction of Iraq but it is doubtful whether its political leaders have any more morality left. The whole Iraq war is morally wrong. It is too much indeed to ask the U.S. to get it morally right. |
Alternet.org
*The War in Iraq is pure murder; excerpt from this book Collateral Damage: America's War Against Iraqi Civilians by Chris Hedges and Laila al-Arian
| Quote: |
Troops, when they battle insurgent forces, as in Iraq, or Gaza or Vietnam, are placed in "atrocity producing situations." Being surrounded by a hostile population makes simple acts, such as going to a store to buy a can of Coke, dangerous. The fear and stress push troops to view everyone around them as the enemy. The hostility is compounded when the enemy, as in Iraq, is elusive, shadowy and hard to find. The rage soldiers feel after a roadside bomb explodes, killing or maiming their comrades, is one that is easily directed, over time, to innocent civilians who are seen to support the insurgents.
Civilians and combatants, in the eyes of the beleaguered troops, merge into one entity. These civilians, who rarely interact with soldiers or Marines, are to most of the occupation troops in Iraq nameless, faceless, and easily turned into abstractions of hate. They are dismissed as less than human. It is a short psychological leap, but a massive moral leap. It is a leap from killing -- the shooting of someone who has the capacity to do you harm -- to murder -- the deadly assault against someone who cannot harm you.
The war in Iraq is now primarily about murder. There is very little killing. The savagery and brutality of the occupation is tearing apart those who have been deployed to Iraq. As news reports have just informed us, 115 American soldiers committed suicide in 2007. This is a 13% increase in suicides over 2006. And the suicides, as they did in the Vietnam War years, will only rise as distraught veterans come home, unwrap the self-protective layers of cotton wool that keep them from feeling, and face the awful reality of what they did to innocents in Iraq
American Marines and soldiers have become socialized to atrocity. The killing project is not described in these terms to a distant public. The politicians still speak in the abstract terms of glory, honor, and heroism, in the necessity of improving the world, in lofty phrases of political and spiritual renewal. Those who kill large numbers of people always claim it as a virtue. The campaign to rid the world of terror is expressed within the confines of this rhetoric, as if once all terrorists are destroyed evil itself will vanish.
The reality behind the myth, however, is very different. The reality and the ideal tragically clash when soldiers and Marines return home. These combat veterans are often alienated from the world around them, a world that still believes in the myth of war and the virtues of the nation. They confront the grave, existential crisis of all who go through combat and understand that we have no monopoly on virtue, that in war we become as barbaric and savage as those we oppose. |
*Winter Soldier on the West Coast: "Enough is Enough, It's Time to Get Out of There." Continuing the Winter Soldier hearings in Maryland and D.C., Iraq veterans tell a Seattle audience stories of the daily atrocities committed in Iraq.
*Iraq's Real Death Toll "Above Highest Estimates"
*Five Years After Mission Accomplished, Iraqis "Dream of the End of the Occupation"
*Paying for War at the Pump ;Five years after we invaded Iraq, the American taxpayers who paid for this grand imperial adventure are rewarded with skyrocketing gas prices.
Jim Hightower's Hightower Lowdown
*THE SCANDAL OF CORPORATE SCOUNDRELS IN IRAQ
| Quote: |
When it comes to his war in Iraq, George W keeps telling us that failure is not an option.
However, when it comes to the privatized army of Halliburtons, Blackwaters, and other corporations that Bush has hired at great national expense to run operations in Iraq, not only is failure an option � it�s the norm! The latest in a long line of corporate failures is an outfit called ITT Federal Services International, a Pentagon contractor hired to keep our troops� battle gear in good working order.
However, ITT often certifies battlefield equipment as having been repaired and ready for action, but the equipment subsequently flunks military inspection, so it has to be re-fixed. Yet, under ITT�s Pentagon contract, the corporation gets paid for all labor costs, so it collects payment a second time for fixing what it failed to repair the first time. Rather than being fired for failure, contractors are rewarded. For example, ITT had a $33 million contract to overhaul 150 Humvees per month. It never came close to that number, but it still got the money and continues to be awarded new Pentagon contracts. Despite its sorry record, ITT has received $638 million from us taxpayers since 2004.
This is the direct result of an unprecedented, ideological push to privatize government and eliminate public oversight. Even the Pentagon now admits that it has a disastrous shortage of federal employees to watch over this ballooning corporate force, and that the system is rife with fraud, kickbacks, waste, and theft. Sen. Claire McCaskill, a former state auditor who is sponsoring legislation to look into war profiteering, says of the privatizing of the military, �It has just been a mess. It�s heartbreaking the amount of money that has just gone up in smoke.�
Bush has made America�s military captive to corporate scoundrels. |
Huffingtonpost.com
*Billionaire Texan Helps Divvy Up Iraq Oil, Now Admits It's the Bush Legacy
*Report: Secret Plan To Keep Iraq Under US Control
*Bush On Iraq War: "I Don't Care If It Created More Enemies"
* Shiite Leader al-Sadr Seeks To Be Iraq Icon Like His Father - Politics on The Huffington Post
Still think we can win this, boys and girls? |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| If you're so in favor of "the war", then why aren't you over there in Iraq fighting it? |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| If you're so in favor of "the war", then why aren't you over there in Iraq fighting it? |
You gotta see these chickenhawks give their reasons why they won't go to Iraq to fight if they so believe in the war.
http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/8027-generation-chickenhawk
In the video, Max Blumenthal meets with the College Republicans to get their views on the Iraq war and why they aren't in Iraq. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| When I tried to join the military it was the draw down and they weren't accepting people so easily and it didn't work out. That is the way it turned out. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| If you're so in favor of "the war", then why aren't you over there in Iraq fighting it? |
You gotta see these chickenhawks give their reasons why they won't go to Iraq to fight if they so believe in the war.
http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/8027-generation-chickenhawk
In the video, Max Blumenthal meets with the College Republicans to get their views on the Iraq war and why they aren't in Iraq. |
John McCains son is in Iraq. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JMO"][
Link? Middle Eastern country's have been Islamic for a long time, and the ideaology hasn't changed much. There is no engulfing being done there. Which nations are being engulfed and please supply evidence to show how so.
| Quote: |
SPECIAL REPORT:Hezbollah active in Nigeria
By CLAUDE SALHANI (Editor, Middle East Times )Published: June 03, 2008
One of a series of photographs reportedly taken in Nigeria, indicating that the Shiite Hezbollah organization is linked to Islamist forces in Sub-Saharan Africa. This photograph shows a group of men in white suits carrying posters of Nasrallah, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the instigator of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, current supreme leader of Iran.
TOOLBAR
Print Story
Add Comments
Is the Islamic revolution, propelled by Lebanon's Hezbollah and backed and financed by Iran's mullah's picking up in Africa where the Soviet Union and the Cubans left off decades ago? Substitute the communists with militant Shiism and you have history repeating itself. Well, almost.
When the Lebanese Shiite militant organization, Hezbollah, went on the offensive against pro-government forces in Beirut earlier this month, the clashes were said to have been part of the ongoing internal Lebanese political struggle. And that justification despite the blatant backing Hezbollah receives from Syria and Iran.
But evidence is emerging that the Shiite organization could be connected with Islamist forces in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, which an issue that deserves close scrutiny by the international community.
Questions need to be asked: Who are those groups? What exactly is Hezbollah's role in supporting them? And, to what extent is Hezbollah acting on orders from the mullahs in Tehran? |
http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/03/special_reporthezbollah_active_in_nigeria/1221/ |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
| JMO wrote: |
[
Link? Middle Eastern country's have been Islamic for a long time, and the ideaology hasn't changed much. There is no engulfing being done there. Which nations are being engulfed and please supply evidence to show how so.
| Quote: |
SPECIAL REPORT:Hezbollah active in Nigeria
By CLAUDE SALHANI (Editor, Middle East Times )Published: June 03, 2008
One of a series of photographs reportedly taken in Nigeria, indicating that the Shiite Hezbollah organization is linked to Islamist forces in Sub-Saharan Africa. This photograph shows a group of men in white suits carrying posters of Nasrallah, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the instigator of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, current supreme leader of Iran.
TOOLBAR
Print Story
Add Comments
Is the Islamic revolution, propelled by Lebanon's Hezbollah and backed and financed by Iran's mullah's picking up in Africa where the Soviet Union and the Cubans left off decades ago? Substitute the communists with militant Shiism and you have history repeating itself. Well, almost.
When the Lebanese Shiite militant organization, Hezbollah, went on the offensive against pro-government forces in Beirut earlier this month, the clashes were said to have been part of the ongoing internal Lebanese political struggle. And that justification despite the blatant backing Hezbollah receives from Syria and Iran.
But evidence is emerging that the Shiite organization could be connected with Islamist forces in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, which an issue that deserves close scrutiny by the international community.
Questions need to be asked: Who are those groups? What exactly is Hezbollah's role in supporting them? And, to what extent is Hezbollah acting on orders from the mullahs in Tehran? |
http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/03/special_reporthezbollah_active_in_nigeria/1221/ |
I bolded the word that you seemed to have missed. Has hezbollah engulfed Nigeria? Invaded and taken over Nigeria? Hitler invades Poland. Islam apparently sends men in white suits. I have to say I'm seriously underwhelmed if this is the best you can we do. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="JMO"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
[
Link? Middle Eastern country's have been Islamic for a long time, and the ideaology hasn't changed much. There is no engulfing being done there. Which nations are being engulfed and please supply evidence to show how so.
| Quote: |
SPECIAL REPORT:Hezbollah active in Nigeria
By CLAUDE SALHANI (Editor, Middle East Times )Published: June 03, 2008
One of a series of photographs reportedly taken in Nigeria, indicating that the Shiite Hezbollah organization is linked to Islamist forces in Sub-Saharan Africa. This photograph shows a group of men in white suits carrying posters of Nasrallah, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the instigator of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, current supreme leader of Iran.
TOOLBAR
Print Story
Add Comments
Is the Islamic revolution, propelled by Lebanon's Hezbollah and backed and financed by Iran's mullah's picking up in Africa where the Soviet Union and the Cubans left off decades ago? Substitute the communists with militant Shiism and you have history repeating itself. Well, almost.
When the Lebanese Shiite militant organization, Hezbollah, went on the offensive against pro-government forces in Beirut earlier this month, the clashes were said to have been part of the ongoing internal Lebanese political struggle. And that justification despite the blatant backing Hezbollah receives from Syria and Iran.
But evidence is emerging that the Shiite organization could be connected with Islamist forces in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, which an issue that deserves close scrutiny by the international community.
Questions need to be asked: Who are those groups? What exactly is Hezbollah's role in supporting them? And, to what extent is Hezbollah acting on orders from the mullahs in Tehran? |
http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/03/special_reporthezbollah_active_in_nigeria/1221/ |
I bolded the word that you seemed to have missed. Has hezbollah engulfed Nigeria? Invaded and taken over Nigeria? Hitler invades Poland. Islam apparently sends men in white suits. I have to say I'm seriously underwhelmed if this is the best you can we do. |
Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan , have a Al Qaeda presence.
Hizzblloh has a presence in South and Central America.
| Quote: |
Hezbollah builds a Western base
From inside South America�s Tri-border area, Iran-linked militia targets U.S.
MSNBC video
By Pablo Gato and Robert Windrem
Telemundo and MSNBC.com
updated 9:29 a.m. ET May 9, 2007
CIUDAD DEL ESTE, Paraguay - The Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia has taken root in South America, fostering a well-financed force of Islamist radicals boiling with hatred for the United States and ready to die to prove it, according to militia members, U.S. officials and police agencies across the continent.
From its Western base in a remote region divided by the borders of Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina known as the Tri-border, or the Triple Frontier, Hezbollah has mined the frustrations of many Muslims among about 25,000 Arab residents whose families immigrated mainly from Lebanon in two waves, after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and after the 1985 Lebanese civil war.
An investigation by Telemundo and NBC News has uncovered details of an extensive smuggling network run by Hezbollah, a Shiite Muslim group founded in Lebanon in 1982 that the United States has labeled an international terrorist organization. The operation funnels large sums of money to militia leaders in the Middle East and finances training camps, propaganda operations and bomb attacks in South America, according to U.S. and South American officials. |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17874369/ |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo I don't know what your point is. I said engulf. Are you claiming that these examples are examples of engulfing? Or are you just polluting yet another thread with random links? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't engulfing is the correct word . However Hezzbolah and Al Qaeda are a serious problem with the reach beyond the mideast and Islamic nations and they need to be wiped out. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I don't engulfing is the correct word . However Hezzbolah and Al Qaeda are a serious problem with the reach beyond the mideast and Islamic nations and they need to be wiped out. |
If you can, don't quote me unless you are actually making a point about what I wrote. Otherwise it is just confusing. Thanks. |
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