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can't....stand.....the ignorance
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Real Reality

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:

Some things are worth repeating. Some things are worth quoting.

howie2424 wrote:

komerican said

Quote:

It doesn't matter that meat older than 30 months are sold in the US. Those are US standards. Korea does not have to follow them obviously.

Those are not US standards they are OIE standards and internationally recognized as the best there are. Again, your argument would be presuasive if Korean law prohibited the marketing of domestic cattle older than 30 months. Do you know this to be the practice here? Do Korean health laws prohibit the consumption of beef from cows older than 30 months? If so please provide me with a link. I�ve been buying beef here for 6 years and have yet to see any information on the label which would indicate the age of the cow at slaughter. I�m guessing Koreans eat as much 30 month+ beef as Americans but I stand to be corrected if you can show me that this isn�t true.

SeoulFinn asked

Quote:

I keep hearing that OIE says that American beef is safe and even safer than South Korean beef. Anyone have verifiable info about this? Something else than hearsay? I want numbers and official statistics.

Here is some info about the Korean beef industry and its OIE rating.

First of all, the OIE ranks countries� mad cow risk in 3 categories. �Negligible risk� (the safest ranking), �Risk Controlled� (the next safest) and �Undetermined risk� (the lowest ranking). The US is currently ranked in the second category while Korea is ranked in the third. As to why they are ranked third you can peruse these articles.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2008/05/123_24896.html
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805200015.html
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805160027.html
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1622384/

As you will see, Korean testing procedures for mad cow leave a little to be desired, both in terms of their efficacy and frequency. They just don�t meet internationally recognized standards. American testing procedures, though they may not be perfect, do meet the international standard. Notwithstanding this fact, there are tens of thousands of Koreans protesting daily against US beef while consuming Korean beef that may well be just as dangerous, without the slightest objection. As I said in other threads on this topic, it�s this duplicitous approach to the issue that leads me to think that these protests have nothing at all to do with food safety concerns.

Eedoryeong said

Quote:

Really if people don't want it on their shelves and they certainly don't want it hidden in their foods, what business does anyone have telling them they have to accept it, dangerous American diet choices notwithstanding?

No one is saying that Koreans have to eat it or even import it. All the US is saying is that they should lift the import ban that was imposed in 2003 because the beef is now certified as safe by internationally recognized standards. From what we see above about Korean standards, it undoubtedly meets domestic health safety requirements as well. If it�s so unpopular here and it�s true that Koreans feel so strongly about it, the beef will rot on the supermarket shelves and the market will do the talking instead of the protesters.

But you know there�s another aspect of this that keeps getting lost. Korea signed an FTA with the US last year. At that time the parties discussed the safety standards by which US beef would be judged and President Roh said he would abide by OIE standards and if the OIE certified that US beef was safe. he would open up the Korean market. A month later the OIE issued its findings and the US was ranked as a �controlled risk country� which means the US was safe to export meat including meat over 30 months old, but not skulls, spines or brains from cows over 30 months old. The US immediately called for a lifting of the import ban but Roh stalled and left it up to the next administration. All LMB did was follow through on Roh�s agreement.

Now Korea wants to abandon that commitment and impose additional standards for American beef that it doesn�t impose on its own beef industry. I wonder what would happen if the US said they would no longer accept Korean cars for import unless they were equipped with front and side driver/passenger airbags, bulletproof windshields and an ejection seat because �that�s what makes Americans feel safe when they�re buying a Korean car. After all, some of those KIAs were just death traps!� I�m guessing Koreans wouldn�t appreciate that irrational gesture much, yet that is exactly what they�re doing on the beef issue.

Surely if US beef meets domestic and internationally recognized health standards, that should be enough. Requiring anything more is completely unreasonable and a serious indication of bad faith. If Koreans want to impose one set of rules for Korean products and another set of tougher rules for identical imported products, they should just say so, tear up the US free trade agreement as well as any others they�ve signed or are negotiating and accept the economic consequences of that isolation.

Scotticus

Joined: 18 Mar 2007

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject:

Real Reality wrote:

Some things are worth repeating. Some things are worth quoting.

Agreed. Honestly, let's get rid of the other Mad Cow stickies and just sticky that post. Anyone stupid enough to argue against American beef in favor of Korean beef after all that evidence isn't worth the paper their diploma is printed on.

IlIlNine

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Location: Gunpo, Gyonggi, SoKo

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:

Eedoryeong wrote:

But that doesn't change the fact that a) Koreans identifying this as something they simply don't want and b) the market being extremely shitty and covering it up

seem to be two important components of a recipe for disaster that one too many American expatriate apologists are misplacing as a kind of blind nationalist mob mentality. That just seems grossly unfair to the protesters.

Really if people don't want it on their shelves and they certainly don't want it hidden in their foods, what business does anyone have telling them they have to accept it, dangerous American diet choices notwithstanding?

10,000 on the streets does not a majority make! Other than the other well-made points in this thread, I think what's missing here is that, unless there is some sort of referendum on the issue, you'll never know who thinks what.

People like you like to complain about expats stereotyping Koreans even though Koreans like to stereotype themselves. By writing in the style above, you're implicitly condoning the stereotyping of Koreans.

Also, since I'm ranting..

Anti-USA, anti US-Beef, anti-FTA, anti-foreign english teacher ....

it all smells like Juche to me.

Eedoryeong

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Location: Jeju

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject:

IlIlNine wrote:

Eedoryeong wrote:

LOL not really, mate. I think you're getting carried away.

The way I wrote above gives room for the spectrum of opinions that may exist among US expats, regarding this issue. I said one too many apologists. I didn't say 'all you apologists' I talk about what Koreans presumably don't want, but it doesn't follow that means all Koreans (any more would the blanket negative statements being made here about Koreans.) Certainly the protesters. And certainly the ones who've voiced displeasure with deceptive market trends.

I think you've got me wrong. I'm just looking for more room for the fact that Koreans being upset about the market lies doesn't seem to matter.

An anti-US poster would take that and say something like 'that's typical of US trade agreement policy elsewhere' or something like that.

I'm glad for the useful links coming up and the corrections. I just wish that some of the fervor in the emerging collective disgust toward Koreans' protests would be mitigated by the reality that Koreans are well within their right for being upset that they've been lied to by their own restaurants in such a casual way, especially on an issue with which a lot of people need to learn more, and especially considering how far into the system the support for that lie seems to go. You have to admit that kind of behavior doesn't roll out the welcome mat for this particular imported foreign product. Maybe you shouldn't break out the big paintbrushes just yet and take a look at it from their point of view. Wouldn't you be pissed if it happened to you? And how much suspension of suspicion would you afford the product if the issue came to you this way?

I guess it's just a long way of saying it smells like a double standard is being applied to these people in this thread. Do only anti-westerners possess the ability to point this out? Is there no room in your paintbrush for me to be a rationalist?

Don't taze me, bro!

howie2424

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject:

Easter Clark wrote

Quote:

Your posts / links have single-handedly changed my mind about the issue. Seriously, well-done.

Thanks Easter Clark, glad I could be of service. While I�m at this, let me try to address one more misleading contention of the anti-US beef crowd, that being the argument that other countries don�t accept older US beef imports, why should Korea?

I don�t profess to speak for the mobs but I believe when making this argument they are referring to Japan which only accepts imports of US beef less than 20 months of age. If there are other countries, please, anti US beef guys, educate me. So why does Japan refuse to accept older shipments of US beef? It�s an interesting story.

First of all, Japan has had a problem with mad cow disease in their cattle. Since 2001 they�ve had at least nine and perhaps as many as 21 domestic cases of BSE. When the first BSE case was discovered in 2001 the Japanese government imposed a �test-all� policy for Japanese beef. Thereafter every single cow sent to market in Japan had to undergo a test certifying that it was free from BSE before it could be sold. Go to the supermarket in Japan, pick up a steak and you�ll find a government sticker on the package certifying the meat to be tested and BSE free.

This policy remains in effect today, As a result, when the American government presses Japan to reopen its market to older US cattle the Japanese simply say, they�d be happy to do so if every such American cow is tested for BSE just like they are in Japan. In other words they merely expect the US producers to meet the same standards they impose on their own beef industry. Sounds fair to me.

Read all about it here
http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/aug04/aug02/JapanmovingtoeaseBSEtesting.CFM
http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/jul04/jul19/JapanwaitsforUSBSEtest.CFM
http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/columns/a01_0125.html

If the Korean government had the same Japanese style testing standards here, then Korea would be perfectly entitled to make the same argument and demand the same standards. Unfortunately, as we�ve seen, Korea�s testing standards are nowhere near as strict as Japan�s or America�s and don�t even meet the internationally accepted minimum. It seems that Korean officials are not as concerned about BSE as the Japanese are, unless of course, the beef happens to be American.

Seoul_Star

Joined: 04 May 2007

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject:

Does anyone know where I can find statistics on how many Koreans have died of mad cow disease brought on by US Beef? With all of the protest and media, surely scores of Koreans must have died from it, but when I google it, nothing comes up. The Chosun Ilbo Korean website however does have some great shots of the action:

komerican

Joined: 17 Dec 2006

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:31 am Post subject:

howie2424 wrote:

komerican said

Quote:

It doesn't matter that meat older than 30 months are sold in the US. Those are US standards. Korea does not have to follow them obviously.

Those are not US standards they are OIE standards and internationally recognized as the best there are. Again, your argument would be persuasive if Korean law prohibited the marketing of domestic cattle older than 30 months. Do you know this to be the practice here? Do Korean health laws prohibit the consumption of beef from cows older than 30 months? If so please provide me with a link. I�ve been buying beef here for 6 years and have yet to see any information on the label which would indicate the age of the cow at slaughter. I�m guessing Koreans eat as much 30 month+ beef as Americans but I stand to be corrected if you can show me that this isn�t true.

Interesting post Howie. I disagree though because clearly countries can have different standards for domestic consumption compared to imports. And Korean domestic standards are not at issue here in the same way that American domestic standards are not at issue when it bans Canadian beef.

The US consumer does indeed consume meat greater than 30 months old but the US also bans Canadian meat over 30 months. This even though Canadians eat millions of tons of their own meat with no Canadian BSE deaths reported.

In the interest of consumer safety the USDA set up strict regulations banning Canadian beef over 30 months even though in the US consumers eat US beef over 30 months old. It's hypocritical for Americans to say that they can do this but Koreans can't.

The problem with your comparison to automobiles is that the scientific knowledge with regard to BSE and prions is less certain than with air bags and seat belts. Apples and oranges, howie.

Quote:

SeoulFinn asked

Quote:

There were significant issues with the deal signed by the Lee administration. The demonstrators have actually accomplished some of their objectives. First, before the demonstrations Korea could not ban US beef even if a case of BSE, mad cow, were to arise in the US. A fact which has justifiably enraged the Korean citizenry.

Keep in mind that when BSE arose in Canada the US immediately banned ALL beef from Canada but Koreans in a similar situation would not have been able to do that.

Also, The US banned all beef older than 30 months from Canada, the age where scientists and the USDA has determined makes cattle more susceptible to the disease, but Korea under this absurd deal will not be able to do what the US can do exercising her right of soverienty. So it has become an issue of sovereignty and people are incensed at how naive the Lee administration has been in just giving this basic right away.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/05/116_24428.html

SeoulFinn

Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

Thanks, howie! Interesting read. Komerican, do not count on convincing too many people to follow your logic. If it is true that foreign beef is not only cheaper but also safer than the domestic one, Mr. Lee and the Korean government is doing a favor for the Korean public. Many farmers will probably loose their livelihoods if they cannot improve their production methods and lower their prices. That is unfortunate.

howie2424

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:41 am Post subject:

komerican wrote

Quote:

The US consumer does indeed consume meat greater than 30 months old but the US also bans Canadian meat over 30 months. This even though Canadians eat millions of tons of their own meat with no Canadian BSE deaths reported.

In the interest of consumer safety the USDA set up strict regulations banning Canadian beef over 30 months even though in the US consumers eat US beef over 30 months old. It's hypocritical for Americans to say that they can do this but Koreans can't.

Again, this would be a knockout punch argument if it wasn�t a complete fantasy. The US imports beef over 30 months from Canada. You may want to believe it doesn�t but it�s a fact. It lifted that ban last year in accordance with OIE guidelines. Read all about it here

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=67e3dd65-f8b3-471b-b15c-b59d63025358&p=3
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/opinion/story.html?id=e1c4cadc-4c55-4fe6-a703-6ae8ef499574
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/prbpubs/prb0301-e.htm#a1theamericanbordertxt

Quote:

The problem with your comparison to automobiles is that the scientific knowledge with regard to BSE and prions is less certain than with air bags and seat belts. Apples and oranges, howie.

I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say was that it is hypocritical of Korea to demand higher standards for imported beef than it does for domestically produced product. If the US demanded drastically higher car safety standards for Korean produced vehicles than it did for domestically produced vehicles, Koreans would be outraged and rightly so. It's discriminatory, completely arbitrary and makes no sense.

Quote:

Once again, a complete lie. Article XX of The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, which supersedes any FTA, gives every country the right to refuse imports which endanger human health. Korea had the right to suspend beef imports from the US if another outbreak of mad cow occurred long before the hysteria even started. If you want to call that a victory for the protesters, go ahead. The fact is Korea had that right all along and US Trade Representatives comfirmed it last month. This was pointed out many times in the Korean media weeks ago but totally ignored. I guess some people just like being angry. See this from May 22nd�s Joong Ang Ilbo

Quote:

Regulations such as Article XX of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the hygiene and quarantine action agreement are applicable regardless of whether Korea demands this or whether the United States accepts such demands.

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2890095

Look up top at the picture of that poor girl lying on the ground bleeding. How sad that makes me feel. You know it�s one thing for the netizens to go on a message board somewhere and spew a bunch of half truths, lies and rumors. It�s quite another to use the same garbage to convince someone to put themselves in harm�s way.

Privateer

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:33 am Post subject:

You wouldn't know it from the lurid gory pictures posted above but the protests in Kwanghwamun are actually quite mellow. People are practically picnicking out there - which is another reason why the over the top police brutality has provoked such outrage. Also it's as much about getting rid of LMB as stopping US beef and even though the beef issue is BS you have to admit LMB is a complete ass.

howie2424

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject:

Privateer wrote

Quote:

Also it's as much about getting rid of LMB as stopping US beef and even though the beef issue is BS you have to admit LMB is a complete ass.

I don't necessarily think he's an ass as I think the FTA is a good thing for Korea and these protests will probably kill it. One thing I am really confused about is how exactly they think they can get rid of him. It's something I don't get about Korean politics. He was elected last year, he's got a single 5 year term. He can't be re-elected. Why would he care about opinion polls? Is there some way he can be impeached for making an unpopular decision but one that was constitutionally within his authority? Please someone in the know, take me to school on that one.

aka Dave

Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject:

howie2424 wrote:

Privateer wrote

Quote:

Also it's as much about getting rid of LMB as stopping US beef and even though the beef issue is BS you have to admit LMB is a complete ass.

I have no idea if he can be impeached but one of my students did say she signed an internet petition to impeach him, and was going to a protest to impeach him.

When I queried on the constitutional procedures of impeachment she got very vague and just sort of broke the conversation off. But the idea is out there, whether or not it's feasible.

2mb has introduced several controversial policies. The Korean canal thingy is a big one - a male professor in my department was really against that because of environmental concerns. I personally don't know the details.

Another controversy was English immersion. He had a proposal to teach *all* subjects in high school in English, and the Koreans just freaked out over that as they didn't think the students or the teachers were prepared for it.

His problem is his popularity is in the low 20s. Bush in America is in the high 20s, and the high 20s is the lowest recorded in American history. We've never had a president as unpopular as 2mb is here in Korea, and when you think about Nixon and Bush (both documented war criminals) that's saying something.

Scotticus

Joined: 18 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject:

Haha, I love having a poster who's willing to put in the time to expose every one of komerican's lies. Watching him get smoked is one of my favorite pastimes on Dave's.

wanamin

Joined: 14 Apr 2008

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject:

SeoulFinn wrote:

Thanks, howie! Interesting read.

Komerican, do not count on convincing too many people to follow your logic. If it is true that foreign beef is not only cheaper but also safer than the domestic one, Mr. Lee and the Korean government is doing a favor for the Korean public. Many farmers will probably loose their livelihoods if they cannot improve their production methods and lower their prices. That is unfortunate.

SeoulFinn, I scoured Kormerican's post, and I couldn't see a hint of logic or reason, except the same circular, quazi-logic he applies to all his posts on this issue.
Did you read something that I missed?

At first I got pulled into debating him, but its not worth it.

Bottom line is:
Korean beef is less safe than America beef. The US and LMB are making the Korean diet safer with the resumption of imports.

NOTHING else needs to be said on the issue.

howie2424

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject:

Scotticus wrote

Quote:

Haha, I love having a poster who's willing to put in the time to expose every one of komerican's lies. Watching him get smoked is one of my favorite pastimes on Dave's.

Actually, I'm only here because my wife's away this weekend and I'm bored. I really don�t want to embarrass anyone, and I'm glad there is a Korean perspective here in this debate, but just look at the myths that have been completely busted in the past week or so in the various threads on this topic.

1. Koreans are more susceptible to Mad Cow Disease than Caucasians (completely false. Even the Korean scientist who wrote the only paper positing this theory admits this is just a hypothesis at best, no conclusions should be drawn from his paper and only further research can establish its validity. See here http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805090017.html
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/05/08/mad-cow-disease-professor-likes-us-beef-mad-as-hell-about-controversy/ )

2. The US beef being imported is beef Americans won�t eat (complete lie)

3. The US beef being imported doesn�t pass US inspection standards (complete lie)

4. Americans don�t eat 30 month+ beef (totally false Americans eat tons of it. See here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7436914.stm)

5. Korean beef is safer than US beef (false. Korea doesn�t do enough BSE testing to establish the BSE risk of eating Korean beef. The US does. As a result eating Korean beef is considered riskier by OIE standards than eating US beef. See here http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2008/05/123_24896.html
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805200015.html
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805160027.html
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1622384/)

6. The US bans 30 month+ beef from Canada but expects Korea to import 30 month+ beef from the US (totally false, the US does import 30 month+ beef from Canada. See here http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=67e3dd65-f8b3-471b-b15c-b59d63025358&p=3
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/opinion/story.html?id=e1c4cadc-4c55-4fe6-a703-6ae8ef499574
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/prbpubs/prb0301-e.htm#a1theamericanbordertxt).

7. Korea can�t stop imports of US beef if Mad Cow breaks out again (false Article XX of the GATT grants Korea this right. US Trade Representatives confirmed this weeks ago. See the text of GATT or here http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2890095)

9. LMB changed the deal on US beef when he met Bush to allow 30 month+ beef in (false, Pres. Roh agreed to this in 2007. LMB just followed through on his commitment)

10. The US is imposing American food safety standards on Koreans (wrong, the US is asking Korea to abide by internationally accepted OIE guidelines for BSE risk, something Pres. Roh agreed to last year. See here http://www.brownfieldnetwork.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=B3A494EC-B78A-2568-1D9B01F99858DD9D)

11. Japan doesn�t accept older US beef, why should Korea? (Because Japan has a �test-all� standard for BSE and tests every single domestic animal before it goes to market. They merely demand the same standards of imported beef. Korea wants one set of higher standards for imported beef and a separate lower standard for domestic beef. See here http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/aug04/aug02/JapanmovingtoeaseBSEtesting.CFM
http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/jul04/jul19/JapanwaitsforUSBSEtest.CFM
http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/columns/a01_0125.html

Every single one of these is an exaggeration, half truth or outright falsehood. What�s left? It astounds me that so many people could be on the streets protesting on the basis of this misinformation.

Last edited by howie2424 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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