Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Passive Voice Conundrum

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Caravan



Joined: 04 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
Calling all grammar nerds.

Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?


Thanks!
C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loose_ends



Joined: 23 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
Caravan wrote:
Calling all grammar nerds.

Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?


Thanks!
C


Good question. I suspect it has something to do with the verb combinations and perhaps nuances in transitive/intransitive for those verb combinations.

In other words, just because Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Grumpy Senator



Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Location: Up and down the 6 line
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
Caravan wrote:
Calling all grammar nerds.

Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?


Thanks!
C


Does the including of the preposition "to" make the second example proper English?
"She was helped to find her glasses."

It is not common, but I believe it is proper English. Or maybe not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
UberJRI



Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Location: Not where I want to be...yet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
The Grumpy Senator wrote:
Caravan wrote:
Calling all grammar nerds.

Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?


Thanks!
C


Does the including of the preposition "to" make the second example proper English?
"She was helped to find her glasses."

It is not common, but I believe it is proper English. Or maybe not.


I agree: you can say "she was helped to find her glasses." You need the "to" in there, but it works. I've also heard something to the effect of "she was helped in finding her glasses," but I can't say that it's very common at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zaria32



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
She was helped find her glasses is incorrect...

You must use "to find" or you could say "in finding," but "helped find" in this usage will always be wrong. It would be correct to say "She helped find her glasses," but not "she was helped find."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
She caused the problem. If she had not lost her glasses in the first place, then we would not have had this problem. Yes, this problem was caused by her. So, she should be the one to clear up this issue. Without question, this issue must be cleared up by her.

And, if she looses them again, we will not give her a second chance. In other words, she will not be given a second chance.



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fancypants



Joined: 22 May 2005
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
Caravan wrote:
Calling all grammar nerds.

Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?


Thanks!
C


He helped her find her glasses./He helped her to find her glasses.

Help often takes the bare infinitive (the "to" is left off), but this is optional. Leave it in, take it out, poTAYto poTAHto, same difference.

So while you have to leave the "to" in for "tell sby to do sth", you can leave it in or take it out with "help sby (to) do sth".

Verbs of perception also often take the bare infinitive:

I [i]watched sby do sth.[/i]

and causatives:

I made sby do sth.

Anyway, I am not sure why English works this way...but perhaps the optionality of the "to" doesn't hold for the passive voice...you have to leave it in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thiuda



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Passive Voice Conundrum Reply with quote
Caravan wrote:
Does anyone know why "She told her daughter to call home." can be made passive as: "Her daughter was told to call home."

BUT, "He helped her find her glasses." apparently can't be made passive as: "She was helped find her glasses." ???

Or maybe it can be made passive that way. It just doesn't sound right to me. Is the problem with the verb "help"?

C


The passive sentence of "He helped her find her glasses," reads, "She was helped by him to find her glasses," or "She was helped finding her glasses."

The rule that derives passive sentences from active ones is a simple, three step formula.

    1. The direct object of the active sentence becomes the grammatical subject of the passive sentence.

    2. The verb is replaced by a form of be that corresponds in tense and aspect to the form in the original sentence, and the verb stem becomes the past participle, i.e. helped (= past + help) becomes was helped (= past + be +en + help)

    3. The subject of the active sentence becomes the object of the preposition by in an adverbial agent phrase, though if one wishes to emphasize the patient's role, one can delete the agent.

I plagiarized the above list from: Passive Transformation

The active sentence you supplied uses the bare infinitive form of the verb find; in a passive sentence a bare infinitive becomes a to-infinitive, if the agent is the direct object. However, if we delete the agent (in your sentence by him), the passive of your sentence would read, "She was helped finding her glasses," i.e. finding her glasses is the direct object.

A further example may clarify my point.

"I saw him help my sister."
"He was seen by me to help my sister." OR
"He was seen helping my sister."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Caravan



Joined: 04 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey, thanks all you geeks. I really appreciate your replies. Saying "She was helped..." plus another verb sounds awkward to my ear, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Thanks again. This is exactly what I needed to know!

Hope you're all having a wonderful day.

Caravan Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thiuda



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Caravan wrote:
Saying "She was helped..." plus another verb sounds awkward to my ear, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.


It isn't, "She was helped.." + another verb, it is "She was helped..." + a gerund functioning as a direct object.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fancypants



Joined: 22 May 2005
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...or the infinitive "to+ simple verb" which also functions as a noun object.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International