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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Americans |
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33!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| plus99 wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
Right...they shouldn't need nuclear weapons as a barganing tool. Their grievances and issues should be heard and brokered fairly by a world body. It's not like Israel is totally innocent. But instead America seems to isolate, demonise and alienate it's enemies even further rather than talking to them. The whole attitude seems to be "It would be a bad thing to find out why people disaree with us." ...rather than "It could be potentially helpful to find out exactly what we are fighting about" .....stupid !
When intelligent people are trying to sort out a problem they do a thing called "compromise" ..they find what common ground they have and find a mutually acceptible solution. They don't write a list of thing they differ on and shout them loudly at each other expecting anything to change. Stupid , stupid , stupid. This is why america is not fit to run the world.
As a society america values all these doctor phil/opera sophisticated ways of dealing with your inter-personal life etc but in international relations suddenly it becomes about "d!ck waving" and posturing. You'd think the average person would appreciate the irony. |
are you kidding.
really does it make you feel better just to vent? reason doesnt factor in at all? you do not feel better when you are most reasonable?
no one is d!ck waving, to use your cute expression. g. bush is re-using the ideology that built the country. its the largest economy in the world and will be for some time.
really, i could go line-by-line here.
america doesnt need nukes as a bargaining tool. weak dollars work just fine. add those to a CEO military. arguments are weak all around. it was based on some founding ideas. it looks like this thread got no where. |
I'm not kidding in the slightest. America is far from fit to run the world...I could hardly thing of a worse country to have the job. When it comes to diplomacy the last person on the face of the planet I want representing me is a Texan cowboy. Shooting at someone's heals and asking them to dance is not my idea of "friend making".
Do you know how easily the conflict with the Arab world could have been solved ? Berate Israel where appropriate and set up a Palestinian state whose rights you champion. Done. Worldwide adorarion for America in the Arab and muslim world. Your solution to win their approval ? Kill them. Stupid !!!!! Do you really think anyone is ever going to buy into the idea that you are in Iraq for the sake of the Iraqi people while you are killing them ? What kind of democracy can be valid when it is installed by gun point ? You people need to put a little more value on "thinking things through" and a little less on "blindly act out violently first and ask questions later".
Last edited by bovinerebel on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| plus99 wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
Right...they shouldn't need nuclear weapons as a barganing tool. Their grievances and issues should be heard and brokered fairly by a world body. It's not like Israel is totally innocent. But instead America seems to isolate, demonise and alienate it's enemies even further rather than talking to them. The whole attitude seems to be "It would be a bad thing to find out why people disaree with us." ...rather than "It could be potentially helpful to find out exactly what we are fighting about" .....stupid !
When intelligent people are trying to sort out a problem they do a thing called "compromise" ..they find what common ground they have and find a mutually acceptible solution. They don't write a list of thing they differ on and shout them loudly at each other expecting anything to change. Stupid , stupid , stupid. This is why america is not fit to run the world.
As a society america values all these doctor phil/opera sophisticated ways of dealing with your inter-personal life etc but in international relations suddenly it becomes about "d!ck waving" and posturing. You'd think the average person would appreciate the irony. |
are you kidding.
really does it make you feel better just to vent? reason doesnt factor in at all? you do not feel better when you are most reasonable?
no one is d!ck waving, to use your cute expression. g. bush is re-using the ideology that built the country. its the largest economy in the world and will be for some time.
really, i could go line-by-line here.
america doesnt need nukes as a bargaining tool. weak dollars work just fine. add those to a CEO military. arguments are weak all around. it was based on some founding ideas. it looks like this thread got no where. |
I'm not kidding in the slightest. America is far from fit to run the world...I could hardly thing of a worse country to have the job. When it comes to diplomacy the last person on the face of the planet I want representing me is a Texan cowboy. Shooting at someone's heals and asking them to dance is not my idea of "friend making".
Do you know how easily the conflict with the Arab world could have been solved ? Berate Israel where appropriate and set up a Palestinian state whose rights you champion. Done. Worldwide adorarion for America in the Arab and muslim world. You're solution to win their approval ? Kill them. Stupid !!!!! Do you really think anyone is ever going to buy into the idea that you are in Iraq for the sake of the Iraqi people while you are killing them ? What kind of democracy can be valid when it is installed by gun point ? You people need to put a little more value on "thinking things through" and a little less on "blindly act out violently first and ask questions later". |
You do know that Clinton brokered a deal that gave the Palestinians almost everything they wanted yet Arafat still turned it down.
If Arafat had accepted the deal, are you saying that Muslims around the world would have started treating women and gays fairly, stopped murdering over cartoons and all the other outrageous things they do. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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You do know that Clinton brokered a deal that gave the Palestinians almost everything they wanted yet Arafat still turned it down.
If Arafat had accepted the deal, are you saying that Muslims around the world would have started treating women and gays fairly, stopped murdering over cartoons and all the other outrageous things they do. |
Almost everything ? If it gave them what they wanted they why did they turn it down ?
Anyway....I don't know. Do you think Christians around the world will stop invading countries and trying to enforce their way of life upon them? Will they stop the child molesting and sex scandals and all the outrageous things they do ?
Did you ever ask a muslim woman how she feels about her role in society ? Did you ever consider she may value her culture and way of life more than comforming to yours ?
Thanks for demonstrating why Americans are not fit to police the world. All or nothing thinking , ignorance and lack of perspective and in one package. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Supporters of Israel love to cart out the myth that Arafat got almost everyhting he asked for. It is simply fallacious Israeli propaganda.
To simplify the discussion: Palestine did not have the rights to their own water supply...Israel controlled the spigot under the 1999 deal.
NO WATER? IN A DESERT?
Would you like to entrust the control of your water supply of your new sovereign country to someone you had been fighting for three millenia?
Puleez. End of discussion.
| Beej wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
| plus99 wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
Right...they shouldn't need nuclear weapons as a barganing tool. Their grievances and issues should be heard and brokered fairly by a world body. It's not like Israel is totally innocent. But instead America seems to isolate, demonise and alienate it's enemies even further rather than talking to them. The whole attitude seems to be "It would be a bad thing to find out why people disaree with us." ...rather than "It could be potentially helpful to find out exactly what we are fighting about" .....stupid !
When intelligent people are trying to sort out a problem they do a thing called "compromise" ..they find what common ground they have and find a mutually acceptible solution. They don't write a list of thing they differ on and shout them loudly at each other expecting anything to change. Stupid , stupid , stupid. This is why america is not fit to run the world.
As a society america values all these doctor phil/opera sophisticated ways of dealing with your inter-personal life etc but in international relations suddenly it becomes about "d!ck waving" and posturing. You'd think the average person would appreciate the irony. |
are you kidding.
really does it make you feel better just to vent? reason doesnt factor in at all? you do not feel better when you are most reasonable?
no one is d!ck waving, to use your cute expression. g. bush is re-using the ideology that built the country. its the largest economy in the world and will be for some time.
really, i could go line-by-line here.
america doesnt need nukes as a bargaining tool. weak dollars work just fine. add those to a CEO military. arguments are weak all around. it was based on some founding ideas. it looks like this thread got no where. |
I'm not kidding in the slightest. America is far from fit to run the world...I could hardly thing of a worse country to have the job. When it comes to diplomacy the last person on the face of the planet I want representing me is a Texan cowboy. Shooting at someone's heals and asking them to dance is not my idea of "friend making".
Do you know how easily the conflict with the Arab world could have been solved ? Berate Israel where appropriate and set up a Palestinian state whose rights you champion. Done. Worldwide adorarion for America in the Arab and muslim world. You're solution to win their approval ? Kill them. Stupid !!!!! Do you really think anyone is ever going to buy into the idea that you are in Iraq for the sake of the Iraqi people while you are killing them ? What kind of democracy can be valid when it is installed by gun point ? You people need to put a little more value on "thinking things through" and a little less on "blindly act out violently first and ask questions later". |
You do know that Clinton brokered a deal that gave the Palestinians almost everything they wanted yet Arafat still turned it down.
If Arafat had accepted the deal, are you saying that Muslims around the world would have started treating women and gays fairly, stopped murdering over cartoons and all the other outrageous things they do. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Supporters of Israel love to cart out the myth that Arafat got almost everyhting he asked for. It is simply fallacious Israeli propaganda.
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Right. Which most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question. Israel as the "good" guys with the "evil muslim terrorists" as the bad guys is so strongly entrenched in american mythology. This kind of "black and white" or "us" and "them" thinking is ok for children , but not for adults who have the bomb.
The idea of Israel as the victim is laughable and yet I bet many people on this board would find it absurd to ever see it that way. You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ? You do know this is what fuels Muslim extremists to hate you ? (well killing 100's of thousands of innocent muslim in Iraq doesn't help either). I don't propose you sell your "friend" Israel up the river...just try and see both sides and stop enabling Israel to abuse the palestinian population.
These things are complicated ....leave the decisions for the intelligent people to deal with. If America must help it can lend it's support as some dumb muscle. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
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Supporters of Israel love to cart out the myth that Arafat got almost everyhting he asked for. It is simply fallacious Israeli propaganda.
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Right. Which most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question. Israel as the "good" guys with the "evil muslim terrorists" as the bad guys is so strongly entrenched in american mythology. This kind of "black and white" or "us" and "them" thinking is ok for children , but not for adults who have the bomb.
The idea of Israel as the victim is laughable and yet I bet many people on this board would find it absurd to ever see it that way. You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ? You do know this is what fuels Muslim extremists to hate you ? (well killing 100's of thousands of innocent muslim in Iraq doesn't help either). I don't propose you sell your "friend" Israel up the river...just try and see both sides and stop enabling Israel to abuse the palestinian population.
These things are complicated ....leave the decisions for the intelligent people to deal with. If America must help it can lend it's support as some dumb muscle. |
I like how influential moneyholding evangelical lobbyists who have an Armageddon hard-on becomes most Americans. I don't think you have a clue what most Americans believe. A sizeable chunk may believe what you mention, but not most.
Some of us with our heads on straight recognize that staying out of the mess and defending our own borders would be a safer bet. Muslim extremists attack anything not Muslim when they deem fit. The fact that America aggravates issues because of Zionist influence ups the scale of attacks that were or could be carried out, but the root cause of it is fundamentalist religious lunacy.
Rather than criticizing America as a whole, it may be a better idea to recognize that America would be better off with more diverse and educated leadership, and leadership that truly believes in separation of church and state. Claiming that Americans are sheep doesn't lend credibility to your argument. Recognizing that many powerholders are influenced by money and greed does. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
| Quote: |
Supporters of Israel love to cart out the myth that Arafat got almost everyhting he asked for. It is simply fallacious Israeli propaganda.
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Right. Which most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question. Israel as the "good" guys with the "evil muslim terrorists" as the bad guys is so strongly entrenched in american mythology. This kind of "black and white" or "us" and "them" thinking is ok for children , but not for adults who have the bomb.
The idea of Israel as the victim is laughable and yet I bet many people on this board would find it absurd to ever see it that way. You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ? You do know this is what fuels Muslim extremists to hate you ? (well killing 100's of thousands of innocent muslim in Iraq doesn't help either). I don't propose you sell your "friend" Israel up the river...just try and see both sides and stop enabling Israel to abuse the palestinian population.
These things are complicated ....leave the decisions for the intelligent people to deal with. If America must help it can lend it's support as some dumb muscle. |
I like how influential moneyholding evangelical lobbyists who have an Armageddon hard-on becomes most Americans. I don't think you have a clue what most Americans believe. A sizeable chunk may believe what you mention, but not most.
Some of us with our heads on straight recognize that staying out of the mess and defending our own borders would be a safer bet. Muslim extremists attack anything not Muslim when they deem fit. The fact that America aggravates issues because of Zionist influence ups the scale of attacks that were or could be carried out, but the root cause of it is fundamentalist religious lunacy.
Rather than criticizing America as a whole, it may be a better idea to recognize that America would be better off with more diverse and educated leadership, and leadership that truly believes in separation of church and state. Claiming that Americans are sheep doesn't lend credibility to your argument. Recognizing that many powerholders are influenced by money and greed does. |
What part of what I've written made you think I did not understand the perfectly obvious ? Of course not all americans think the same , are stupid , or would run the world the way their government is. I'm not even talking to/about the majority of Americans. I'm clearly talking to/about the ones that would/are. If some people get offended in the crossfire ....well...that's collaterall damage he he).
You must understand that for you to have an incentive to change your country you need to realise you'll be associated with its actions as a group , not an individual. You're a stakeholder in its fate. The "it's not me" argument is a cop out and clears you of any blame or incentive to change your country for the better. After all in times like these we need to smart american to be more active than ever. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| djsmnc wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
| Quote: |
Supporters of Israel love to cart out the myth that Arafat got almost everyhting he asked for. It is simply fallacious Israeli propaganda.
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Right. Which most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question. Israel as the "good" guys with the "evil muslim terrorists" as the bad guys is so strongly entrenched in american mythology. This kind of "black and white" or "us" and "them" thinking is ok for children , but not for adults who have the bomb.
The idea of Israel as the victim is laughable and yet I bet many people on this board would find it absurd to ever see it that way. You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ? You do know this is what fuels Muslim extremists to hate you ? (well killing 100's of thousands of innocent muslim in Iraq doesn't help either). I don't propose you sell your "friend" Israel up the river...just try and see both sides and stop enabling Israel to abuse the palestinian population.
These things are complicated ....leave the decisions for the intelligent people to deal with. If America must help it can lend it's support as some dumb muscle. |
I like how influential moneyholding evangelical lobbyists who have an Armageddon hard-on becomes most Americans. I don't think you have a clue what most Americans believe. A sizeable chunk may believe what you mention, but not most.
Some of us with our heads on straight recognize that staying out of the mess and defending our own borders would be a safer bet. Muslim extremists attack anything not Muslim when they deem fit. The fact that America aggravates issues because of Zionist influence ups the scale of attacks that were or could be carried out, but the root cause of it is fundamentalist religious lunacy.
Rather than criticizing America as a whole, it may be a better idea to recognize that America would be better off with more diverse and educated leadership, and leadership that truly believes in separation of church and state. Claiming that Americans are sheep doesn't lend credibility to your argument. Recognizing that many powerholders are influenced by money and greed does. |
What part of what I've written made you think I did not understand the perfectly obvious ? Of course not all americans think the same , are stupid , or would run the world the way their government is. I'm not even talking to/about the majority of Americans. I'm clearly talking to/about the ones that would/are. If some people get offended in the crossfire ....well...that's collaterall damage he he).
You must understand that for you to have an incentive to change your country you need to realise you'll be associated with its actions as a group , not an individual. You're a stakeholder in its fate. The "it's not me" argument is a cop out and clears you of any blame or incentive to change your country for the better. After all in times like these we need to smart american to be more active than ever. |
Hmm....let's see. You said
| Quote: |
| most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question |
, which seems to clearly denote to anyone with even a minor grasp of the English language that you are referring to a majority. Your messages don't reflect an excellent command of the language, though, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Also, it's common sense that just because someone is from a certain country doesn't mean that they want to be associated with every policy of the government. The people who lump them together tend to be as equally simplistic as the people who see the world in terms of black and white, such as a hick who sees all Russians as pro Communist.
When you make statements such as
| Quote: |
| You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ? |
you are placing accountability on individuals who may not have anything to do with the issue and implying that they are responsible for creating the problem. It is antagonizing and absurd. Your credibility flies out the window and you sink to the level of a raving madman.
Last edited by djsmnc on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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The heart of the issue is the continued US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan. The issue that caused 9/11 is the view in the Arab world that the US blindly supports Israel.
Now the heart for the Arab-Israeli conflict:
- The continued occupation of Jerusalem by Israel, especially with the Al-Aqsa Mosque being within a non-muslim territory.
- The demand that Israel withdrawal to their pre-1948 border (though there is a compromise that Israel should go back to their pre-1967 boundary)
- Resettle Palestinians back onto lands that are now firmly in the hands of Israeli citizens.
- What gets the goats of all Arabs and Muslims is the fact that a non-muslim nation is in the heart of their region (it is the same animosity that many people in the Balkans feel about Bosnia, which is a muslim country that is in the heart of Europe).....
This conflict is VERY complex and thats why many countries like Russia, England and such, refuse to get involved in such an indepth level the US sees itself.
And what was very ironic about the start of the conflict was that it wasn't the US and it's allies that supported the fledgling nation- It was the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact that sent arms and training to the Haganah and the newly formed IDF.......in fact, there was a British general in command of the Jordanian army and British officers advising the Egyptian and Iraqi forces during the war..............and French tankers and figher pilots working for the Syrians and Lebanese................
.................so my question is; How is the US involved in the creation of Israel?
In fact, the US places an arms embargo on the nation and many of the weapons and trainers were smuggled in from Eastern Europe............... |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
.................so my question is; How is the US involved in the creation of Israel?
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This helps explain it |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm....let's see. You said Quote:
most Americans seem to absorb seemingly without question
, which seems to clearly denote to anyone with even a minor grasp of the English language that you are referring to a majority. Your messages don't reflect an excellent command of the language, though, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
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I have an excellent command of the language , a huge vocabulary and flair for tweaking it to express myself beautifully. But you're entitled to your opinions. When I say most I mean most. If you're an exception then I don't mean you. It's simple stuff.
| Quote: |
Also, it's common sense that just because someone is from a certain country doesn't mean that they want to be associated with every policy of the government. The people who lump them together tend to be as equally simplistic as the people who see the world in terms of black and white, such as a hick who sees all Russians as pro Communist.
When you make statements such as
Quote:
You do know that your blind support for Israel is what caused people to attack you in 9/11 right ?
you are placing accountability on individuals who may not have anything to do with the issue and implying that they are responsible for creating the problem. It is antagonizing and absurd. Your credibility flies out the window and you sink to the level of a raving madman. |
As an American , whose country has just invaded a country affecting millions, based on the actions of the very few ..excuse me for saying your credibility goes out the window. If you want to be treated especially for your individualism , then start by offering that to other countries. You get lumped in to suffer the fate of the rest regardless of your personal beliefs so you'd better realise the need to ensure you do your part in making your country act responsibly. Until then.... I'm sorry...you're a target for extremism and you're collaterall damage. It's in your best interests to ensure your country does not act like a bunch of blowhards. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
I have an excellent command of the language , a huge vocabulary and flair for tweaking it to express myself beautifully. But you're entitled to your opinions. When I say most I mean most. If you're an exception then I don't mean you. It's simple stuff.
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No, you make ridiculously broad statements totally devoid of any indication that you understand the concept of nuance or ambiguity. Then when you're called on it, you claim that you do, when it's quite obvious that you don't. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
I have an excellent command of the language , a huge vocabulary and flair for tweaking it to express myself beautifully. But you're entitled to your opinions. When I say most I mean most. If you're an exception then I don't mean you. It's simple stuff.
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No, you make ridiculously broad statements totally devoid of any indication that you understand the concept of nuance or ambiguity. Then when you're called on it, you claim that you do, when it's quite obvious that you don't. |
Bollocks...to me all that is obvious is that you made ridiculously simplistic assumptions which failed to deal with any of the actual content of what I was posting. Is your only critique the blatantly obvious fact that not all Americans are as described ?
More edivence of why you can't be trusted with power.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8383084962209910782&hl=en
Including this interesting statistic.
Civilians % of total number killed during World War 1 = 10 %.
World War 2 = 50%
Vietnam = 70%
Iraq = 90%
Way to "help" the people.
Last edited by bovinerebel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aka Dave
Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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It wasn't that Arafat refused the deal with Barak, who commited his political life to a settlement. It's that he walked away from the discussion and refused to keep talking.
The Palestinians, at this point in time, don't accept Israel's existence. They elected a terrorist organization Hamas, as their leaders. The settlements were a mistake, but even if they were all dismantled the Palestenians wouldn't be satisfied. Israel, after all, tried to bail out on Gaza and what did that do? Nothing.
But, frankly, the right of the return is simply a demographic way of destroying Israel.
You have to want peace. Israelis do want peace. The Palestinians, justifiably aggrieved, don't. That's the bottom line at the moment. Anything else is fantasy. So Israel will prepare for war. |
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