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Rumple
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quack Addict wrote: |
| What did the Daila Lama say at the hot dog stand? Make me one with everything. |
No, no, you got that all wrong.
What did the Zen student say to the hot dog vendor: "Make me one with everything."
Then he paid, and asked for his change. "Ah," said the vendor, "Change comes from within.: |
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PBRstreetgang21
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL--- serving as man's paean to medocrity since 1971!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy:
listen man, I understand where you are coming from cause years ago I used to argue from that pulpit myself. But that fact is, you hit the nail on the had SURVIVAL is the root of it all. Religion is derived from that basic need. We have brains designed to find out and tell us what the hell is going on, and when we cannot figure it out, we fill in the blanks ourselves. Simple as that.
The fact is religion is not what governments are today. In the US, Canada, Australian, NZ, and Western Europe, and increasing amounts of other countries (South Korea inculded) we have MANY religions existing simulataneously. Now let me ask you, is that because religion has decided that it needs to coexist with others, or because secular govt's forced it to coexist with others? The only reason why religion occupies the place it does now (i.e. one of mashed patatoes vs. green bean casserole on the buffet tray) has nothing to do with the wishes of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that through a combination of science and secular governance we have reduced the varying denominations to "options". Since all religions regard themselves as the only true path, but turning them into options we have negated the need to posses them.
Many years ago when we didnt know why volcanoes destroyed cities, and earthquakes leveled villages, and hurricanes destroyed families (not that they still dont) we wanted someone to tell us why this happened. It was through our fantasies, and our need for recourse that we came to believe that or destiny was not out of our hands.
When religion controlled thr show, anyone not of the approved church was commited to die. The only reason why you can have protestants and catholics, jews and muslims, and buddhists and jains, hindus and zoroastrians together is because of SECULAR governance. Prior to that, if you did not except the approved church you where tortured. This isnt old news either. This goes on today. In many muslim countries, to convert to another religion is punishable by death. What athiest would execute a person for chaging his belief from one unprovable set of beliefs to another? This was the case for most countries in Europe both Catholic and Prostestant for most of European history. The idea that you can be a catholic in England or a Protestant in France are very RECENT developments.
In Iran there is a law that virgin cannot be executed no matter what the crime. So when a young virgin was sentenced to death for being caught with a man not of her family, how could they execute her? Simple--- the gaurds raped her and then she no longer qualified as a virgin.
In African and middle eastern countries today, people view god's creation so perfect that they use stones to painfully saw off almost all of the external genitals of females to keep them "pure" a process that leaves all disfigured and many sick or dead.
The visions of hell preached by Protestantism and Catholicism have ruined many a childhood and left many wondering whether they can ever have fulfilled lives, to say nothing of the institutionalized rape of children, or the inquistion, or the crimes commited by John Calvin, the St Bartholemews Day Masscre, Salem witch trials, the gays beaten to death, and to say nothing of the fact that the very Hitler you brought up, was able to commit his atrocities against Jews by capitalizing on almost 2,000yrs of pogroms and passion plays leaving untold numbers of Jews dead or destroyed, etc etc. I can go on and on. The fact is that religion destory's lives AS WE SPEAK.
Religion causes no good man to do evil? Do you think many of those burning protestants at the stake would have done so without Catholicism? Do you think the Japanese Kamikaze would have done what they did apart from Buddhism? Or Suicide bombers doing what they do apart from the quran?
Only religion can convince them to do what they do and have done.
The fact is you made my arguement for me. Religion was a survival tool, one that is now outdated. To keep it any longer is to risk danger. We dont need it now. We have much better ways of explaining how things operate.
When Laplace (the man who came up with first model of our solar system) presented his theory to Napolean, Napolean asked him "where is God in this theory" to which Laplace simply said, "Well sir it doesnt NEED god to work."
The fact is when a Muslim kills people in the name of Islam he isnt doing it IN SPITE of the teachings of his faith, THATS WHAT HIS FAITH AND HOLY BOOK TELL HIM. The true dilquents in Islam are the ones NOT killing "infedels". And Before you ask me if I have read the quran the answer is yes.
The Bible. Oh what a fantastic peice of literature and atrocious peice of history and moral teaching. A Book where Moses commands his legions to kill thousands and rape virgin children (only one of many episodes where God commands he chosen people to rape and maim and kill) Or gentle Jesus, who promises life ever lasting of servitude and thanks to to father (like North Korea where the only right you have is thanks to the Fatherly leader) and if you choose not to except a horrific blood sacrifice you never asked for you loving God with spit you hell for eternity. To say nothing of the Madness of St Paul. (As previously devout Catholic I know my Epistles as well as my Gospels). Ive heard the arguments for Metaphor and they all sound a lot like the "Life of Brian"
"Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
"Well you arent supposed to take it literally, it s reference to all in the
dairy industry."
Explain to me how religion in anyway provides us with a perspective denied to philosophy, science, or literature and I might hear you out. Until then I dont see how religion brings a thing to the table other than division and destuction of individual lives. |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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you talk a lot about "nature", "survival", but i guess you need to get some facts straight first, otherwise it hurts your logic, your analogy, and your reputation of "knowing the nature."
you may not know that tiger, actually, is the largest surviving feline walking on this planet. so when a lion meets tiger, it is the lion should be worried about "not getting eaten" rather than tiger. not to say a tiger with cubs - lion might pee in his big thick fur coat while running away.
secondly, i think it is YOU who still lives in 10,000BC.
it is indeed absurd to find someone still believes that even today, we are "all animals."
I am not sure about you. but i am sure 99% of the human beings on the planet are not animals. why? because evolution has changed human beings. now we have society, have laws, have moral standards to check us in check.
and while you say "religion is not the root cause, but survival is (..for people killing each other)", do you mean those islamic extremists setting off suicide bombs because of their urge to survive?
there is only one thing i agree with you in your post - religion is for weak people.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
I think the problem with a lot of you guys is you are all stuck in 1020ad!
Listen, religion was what governments are today! It�s a way to keep the people in check! Religion is still here because it was such a huge force in the past! Yes extremists are using the name of religion to kill others as they did in the past! But that doesn�t make a killer! Those same weak minded people will kill regardless of using religion as the source! The GOOD far outnumber the bad when it comes to religion mishaps!
But to quote the mad scientist Weinberg is just absurd!
For good people to do bad things it takes religion?? Not it doesn�t!
For weak minded people to do bad things in the name of religion takes a religion!
Anyone can be bad! Evil lives in all of us! But then again what is evil?
A lion kills 4 tigers and eats the tiger�s cubs! Is that evil? NO!
That�s nature! A man kills 3 people because his family was threatened Is that evil?
In our controlled society and thought process of course it is...for a man to have an affair is evil!
5000 years ago if I killed you because you were attacking my tribe and I slaughtered you and your family! Is that evil? Its survival! For religion to survive in those days! Just like businesses or governments there needs to be collateral damage! Doesn�t make it bad! Its one mans abuse of power!
Its not religion it self! Please don�t get confused..
We are all animals, biologically we are the same as we were 10000 years ago running through the jungle killing each other!
Religion wasn�t the root of it! Survival was!
Priests who molester children are just that, molesters
A doctor could molester children! A teacher, a policeman!
Just because a molester happened to be a priest doesn�t make religion wrong!
Just because a suicide bomber killed 3000 people in the name of ALAH doesn�t make Islam bad!
Just because Hitler was an atheists doesn�t mean atheism is wrong!
Get my point!? |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
...
Explain to me how religion in anyway provides us with a perspective denied to philosophy, science, or literature and I might hear you out. Until then I dont see how religion brings a thing to the table other than division and destuction of individual lives. |
very well said PBRstreetgang21, very nice. |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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Rumple
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
Itaewonguy:
The fact is religion is not what governments are today. In the US, Canada, Australian, NZ, and Western Europe, and increasing amounts of other countries (South Korea inculded) we have MANY religions existing simulataneously. Now let me ask you, is that because religion has decided that it needs to coexist with others, or because secular govt's forced it to coexist with others? The only reason why religion occupies the place it does now (i.e. one of mashed patatoes vs. green bean casserole on the buffet tray) has nothing to do with the wishes of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that through a combination of science and secular governance we have reduced the varying denominations to "options". |
I think you're speaking from a fairly ethnocentric perspective here.
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| Since all religions regard themselves as the only true path, but turning them into options we have negated the need to posses them. |
All religions do NOT regard themselves as the only true path!
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| When religion controlled thr show, anyone not of the approved church was commited to die. The only reason why you can have protestants and catholics, jews and muslims, and buddhists and jains, hindus and zoroastrians together is because of SECULAR governance. Prior to that, if you did not except the approved church you where tortured. |
There were certainly instances where this was true. But not everywhere, and not all the time.
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| This isnt old news either. This goes on today. In many muslim countries, to convert to another religion is punishable by death. What athiest would execute a person for chaging his belief from one unprovable set of beliefs to another? This was the case for most countries in Europe both Catholic and Prostestant for most of European history. The idea that you can be a catholic in England or a Protestant in France are very RECENT developments. |
Uh, there have always been a fair number of Catholics in England, including the royal family before Henry VIII (900 years of Catholic rule).
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| In Iran there is a law that virgin cannot be executed no matter what the crime. So when a young virgin was sentenced to death for being caught with a man not of her family, how could they execute her? Simple--- the gaurds raped her and then she no longer qualified as a virgin. |
Really? What year? What was her name?
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| In African and middle eastern countries today, people view god's creation so perfect that they use stones to painfully saw off almost all of the external genitals of females to keep them "pure" a process that leaves all disfigured and many sick or dead. |
What countries do that today? I'm asking because you make it seem like there are a lot...
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| The visions of hell preached by Protestantism and Catholicism have ruined many a childhood |
Really? Preaching ruins childhoods?
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| The fact is that religion destory's lives AS WE SPEAK. |
A lot of things destroy lives as we speak, but it isn't the religion that does it...its the people. And people have a choice.
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| Do you think the Japanese Kamikaze would have done what they did apart from Buddhism? |
Uh, for one thing, Kamikaze was based on Shinto beliefs (Kami is the Japanese Shinto word for "divine," or "spirit," because Shinto says that all natural things have kami, like rivers, mountains, trees, etc.) and for another thing, I think the Japanese fighter plane that flew behind the kamikaze planes with orders to shoot down anyone who didn't make their suicide attack did more to enforce compliance than any religious belief system. But you are obviously blathering about things you know little about.
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| The fact is when a Muslim kills people in the name of Islam he isnt doing it IN SPITE of the teachings of his faith, THATS WHAT HIS FAITH AND HOLY BOOK TELL HIM. The true dilquents in Islam are the ones NOT killing "infedels". And Before you ask me if I have read the quran the answer is yes. |
If that's true, I don't understand how you can say that. That is 180 degrees from what that book says. |
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PBRstreetgang21
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL--- serving as man's paean to medocrity since 1971!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Rumple allow me to go point by point:
1: If it sounds like I am speaking from a fairly ethnocentric point of view its cause I am. Western liberal democracy is better. If it sounds racist, or ethnocentric I dont care. Its the best there is and thats end of it. No system in the world has been found to produce more tolerence, thought, creativity, prosperity, or peace. Is it perfect? Hell no, but like Churchill said, its the worst system excepting all others that have been tried. Calling something ethnocentric doesnt invalidate it.
2: The major world religions with the notable exception of Buddhism (which is also different from other paths in number of ways) have taught that for most of their histories. The idea that they are NOT the one true path are again, RECENT developmets. Spurred by the interection in settings where they are FORCED to get along. In Nigeria Christians and Muslims still kill eachother, In Canada they have debates. Its the system thats in place that keeps them in check. Protestants and Catholics have been killing eachother for centuries now. Muslims and Jews as well. Why? A number of reasons, but it has largely to do with a perception of being right. The first Christian martyr was at the hands of the Jews not the Romans. Why? They blasphemed God, therefore they must die. In Afghanastan just a year or two ago the US had to intervene to stop a the death penalty sentence of a man who converted to Christianity because the Hadith and Quran perscribe death for an apostate. Why? Its offensive to God. Last year the Vatican came out and reaffirmed its belief that it is the only true Faith. Protestants carry on endlesslt about eternal damnation for the unbelievers. Thousands of muslims in India have been killed of the past twenty years by Hindu extremists. Why? Why is all this killing going TODAY. Why do all these religions continue to have disagreements even when they are NOT killing eachother? Because they all think they are right. They cant prove God exists but they can claim to speak for him, and they seem to be saying at the worst everyone is wrong and should die for it, and at the least when its behaved, you can play with the other children but just remember they will most likely burn in hell. Ive found in my time spent in various churches, temples, and mosques in the States, that individuals openly hostile are not the majority (but sizable minority) but the majority of people respect others as people but think they are flat out wrong in their beliefs. Which is completely in tune with the tenets of their faiths. The fact that you can even say that religions dont regard themselves as the true path flies in the face of the past ten years of history let alone the last 4,000.
3: No you've got it backwards. There were instances when religion calmed down, (eg Moorish Spain) but in the annals of history THESE were the exceptions. When religion was in charge it was FAR more intolerant that it ever was tolerent. Tolerance had spurts and came up but was always suspect and short lived. The Inquisition lasted far longer than rennaisance, and well as the Crusades. Muslim assasins and slaughter of Shia Sunni was a much longer (and still exists) period than Moorish tolerance in Spain. The tragedies of the new world, etc. Oppression and wars between sects in India. These are INSTANCES, these were what life had been like for most our History. Props to Catholicism for at least half admitting its role.
4: Yes Prior to Henry VIII if you were a protestant it was the rack for you. After Elizabeth it was Catholicism that put you in the Tower. How many hundreds of years was Catholicism punished, catholics denied public office, taxed for simply believing and at times tortured. Even Quakers took their lumps. Once the Anglican Church was established that WAS the church and there was no other for several hundred years. You are glossing over so pretty glaring facts about the treatment of Catholics in the UK. I mean if it wasnt such a big deal why is there a whole lot of legislation called "Catholic Emancipation" that exists on the books? Why is Anti-Catholicism so prevalent that even TODAY Tony Blair had to wait until AFTER he stepped down to announce his conversion to Catholicism?
5: You know you do have me on this one, Im pulling from old memories in the news and I dont feel like googling it so Ill remove this one. But since we're on the topic of Iran, lets remember some other fun things this country does. Women can be legally beaten by their husbands, they must cover their whole bodies or risk prison. Religions minorites like Jews and Zoroastrians and Bahai'i have had decades of untolled torture and persecution because....oh yeah Shia Islam is the only true path (back to the argument of religions not saying that they are all right). But as we all know Iran proves that despite all of these horrid practices, even a THEOCRACY can be a model government!
6: If I make it seem like a lot its because THERE ARE A LOT.
| Quote: |
| Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGC, with over 2 million procedures being performed every year. FGC is mainly practiced in African countries. It is common in a band that stretches from Senegal in West Africa to Ethiopia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania in the south; see Map. It is also practiced by some groups in the Arabian peninsula. The country where FGC is most prevalent is Egypt, followed by Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali. Egypt recently passed a law banning FGC |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#cite_note-BBC-27
This is practice like a lot of crap, that has no basis in scientific fact, but that has been going on for time immemorial and continues to occur today through the butressing of whatever religion that will protect "traditional values"
Same can be said for male circumcision which time and again studies have show is useless and actually is not more hygenic. Its just a way of making sure you're a jew.
7: If you dont think preaching hasnt ruined a great many childhoods, to say nothing of the Jewish children executed and stolen from the families after Good Friday sermons for hundreds of years, then you need to get out more. I dont see how anyone can lead a life religious or otherwise where they have not met someone who has been mentall manipulated or traumatized or guilt ridden because of what they have heard in the pulpit. To say nothing of a great much nonsense given out as "God's law" by some sermon extolling the faithful to go to another country and ruin their way of life, to wreck families by telling women and men to stay in abusive relationships (because divorce is a sin). Preaching that encourages suicide attacks. Violence and hatred to homosexuals, to say nothing of the untold numbers of Gay children who feel maligned and guilty for an impluse they cannot control but are commanded to "heal". Preaching supported slavery for thousands of years (for the good abolitionists who hapenned to be religious did the fact is far more religious people were in support of Slavery, and why not? Even Jesus never said anything about abolishing slavery both the new and old testaments support it, as does the quran as frederick douglass once observed, the more religious a slaveowner was often the more violent as well). How much money from old women has preaching extorted? This isnt old stuff, and this isnt few and far between. This is stuff you can see ALL THE TIME. I meet people in many of these situations quite often. One of the reasons why I left faith was because for years I told myself that these were the EXCEPTIONS, but the more people I meet who have spent years in pain because of what they were told made them bad people, that hell was around the corner, that they were worthless grows and grows to the point were I cannot say this is an exception there are FAR too many people like this.
8: Your right people are people, and a great many things in this world are done in the guise of religion that religion may not necessarily come out directly for (like female genital cutting). However, the problem here is that religion reinforces old prejeduces and habits. Religion comes to the table saying "shit's all figured out already" it reinforced old habits that need to be updated, some of which are holding us back. To say nothing of the destruction being wreaked as a direct result of religion. Do you really think what happened in N Ireland could have gone on for as long as it did without the pulpits reinforcing the division? OR What about whats going on in Israel? Thats ALL religion, you take religion out what is left to fight over? What about Iraq? These are RELGIOUS conflicts plain and simple. people bring up economic factors, but there are plenty of poor people in South America who are oppressed they arent blowing themselves up-- because their church doesnt say its ok. No they are busy making themselves more poor cause they dont use condoms cause their church says God isnt a fan. To say nothing of the AIDS crisis in Africa being worsened by the Church chiming and saying condoms are for the hell bound. The Fighting between Hindus and Buddhists in Sri Lanka. What other reason do these pains inflicted upon people have a basis for other than religion? People do have a choice, they can keep their religion in their house and in public follow rational scientific knowledge. Often religious people in the west are more receptive to scientific knowledge than they are to even their own churches, and thank Zeus for it. I remeber even among my religious friends they took it all "allegorical" and the rela crazies where the ones ACTUALLY DOING what their Holy Books said.
9: No I do know what Im talking about. I took Japanese for two years, I know what Kamikaze means and I know where it came from. I know Shinto and I know Buddhism and I know the difference. First off Japan never made on choose, everyone was Shinto AND Buddhist. Beliefs about the Emperor and spirits were Shinto. But Shinto gets vague in the afterlife, and thats where Buddhism picks(ed) up the slack. Even amonst Japanese TODAY, many will say in Japan Buddhism is the "Death religion" because most beliefs about the afterlife and preperations for it are derived from it. Zen Buddhism was used to reinforce and promote ideas of Nationalism and Japanese superiorty and conviently added a nice framework to reward "the faithful" check out the book "Zen at War" by Brian Victoria(who is despite his critical look at the role of Zen is-- a Buddhist): http://www.amazon.com/Zen-War-Brian-Daizen-Victoria/dp/0742539261/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213180184&sr=8-1
No, I believe it is YOU sir, who are the one who knows little.
10: In the early parts of Qur'an the references to Jews and Christians (only them all others not and are permissible to be killed) are larglet tolerant. However, as the book continues the tone changes significatly where you are left with,
| Quote: |
| Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. |
That is Sura 9 verse 5. If you want more to see the negative protrayal of Jews and Christians try (2:111,2:113,3:63,3:71,3:63; 3:71; 4:46; 4:160-161; 5:41-44, 5:63-64, 5:82; 6:92). That is to say nothing of the Hadith which have (in practice anyway) equal footing with Qur'an are laced with far more commands to violence to the ubelievers.
I agree with you on point that good people do good things, and bad do bad. Religion is often a tool. But there are a great many instances where it is not the tool but the root cause. Many times it buttress otherwise intolerable behavior. Hell, the Catholic church hasnt supported a "Just war" since it backed Franco in Spain. It comes to us having already given the answers and doesnt want to hear more. Its not open to ideas until it has nowhere to run. As Christopher Hitchens points out, "religion is philosophy without the questions."
You have yet to refute the main thrust of my argument, and that is given the fact that there are not good deeds that the religious do that the irreligious couldnt equally do. Given the fact that there are a great many horrid things that have been done and are continued to be done, BECAUSE of religion that couldnt not be supported without religion. Given the abysmal track record and history of most of the worlds faithful institutions-- what "pray tell" does religion bring to the table that we could not have without it? What does relgion offer the make the world a better place that we cannot equally if not more easily extrapolate from science, philosphy, and literature? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
Now let me ask you, is that because religion has decided that it needs to coexist with others, or because secular govt's forced it to coexist with others? The only reason why religion occupies the place it does now (i.e. one of mashed patatoes vs. green bean casserole on the buffet tray) has nothing to do with the wishes of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that through a combination of science and secular governance we have reduced the varying denominations to "options". Since all religions regard themselves as the only true path, but turning them into options we have negated the need to posses them.
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religion might have been at the throne of certain governments in the past
But it was never forced on anyone to fully believe in it! Religion is a personal belief system. At the end of the day you choose to swallow what they are dishing out or not!
In remote parts of the world in the past tribes had a religion! Just as major cities like London, Rome or Babylon did. Sure there were consequences if you denounced the religion in certain parts of the world
But many places it wasn�t so.. As I will explain later it�s all about Education anyway...
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Many years ago when we didn�t know why volcanoes destroyed cities, and earthquakes leveled villages, and hurricanes destroyed families (not that they still don�t) we wanted someone to tell us why this happened. It was through our fantasies and our need for recourse that we came to believe that or destiny was not out of our hands.
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There are still unanswered questions today. So what do we do first as a scientist! We refute the possibility of god and just say evolution, natural selection! Basically you don�t have an answer but because you have your own belief system of refuted god the answer is always IT WASNT GOD!
Ying and yang!
| Quote: |
| When religion controlled the show, anyone not of the approved church was committed to die. The only reason why you can have protestants and Catholics, jews and muslims, and buddhists and jains, hindus and zoroastrians together is because of SECULAR governance. Prior to that, if you did not except the approved church you where tortured. This isn�t old news either. This goes on today. In many muslim countries, to convert to another religion is punishable by death. |
Yes perhaps this was true in certain parts of the dark ages! But there is a flip side to that coin!
World war your government has ordered you to fight for the country!
If you refuse you will be killed! Where is religion here? This brings me back to religion was what governments are today! A way to control the people!
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| What atheist would execute a person for chaging his belief from one unprovable set of beliefs to another? |
You are going to far not all societies in the past were this way! You are only focusing on the extreme cases!
Hitler slaughtered 6 million Jews! He was an atheist! He didn�t like them or their views on religion so he slaughtered them!
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This was the case for most countries in Europe both Catholic and Prostestant for most of European history. The idea that you can be a catholic in England or a Protestant in France are very RECENT developments.
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That�s not true! Many different religions have coexisted in society for centuries! You are saying that different raced people with different religions never lived in the same city! This is not true! ROME for example was a huge multinational city with all kinds of foreigners living together
Ceaser didn�t kill people if they believed in different gods! He only killed them if they were a threat to his power or from a country of his enemy!
Again controlling power and a man�s arrogance is the venom here!
Whatever ceaser believes is right! In his mind... I mean after all he has more power than god! So why not 
| Quote: |
| In African and middle eastern countries today, people view god's creation so perfect that they use stones to painfully saw off almost all of the external genitals of females to keep them "pure" a process that leaves all disfigured and many sick or dead. |
Again extreme cases! Watch discovery channel! There are tribes in Africa where they put plates in their lips and hang saucers in their earlobes to attach the opposite sex! Why do they do this? Becuase that�s how they are educated! Religion and education- humans are one of the smartest and dumbest animals on the planet!
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The visions of hell preached by Protestantism and Catholicism have ruined many a childhood and left many wondering whether they can ever have fulfilled lives, to say nothing of the institutionalized rape of children, or the inquistion, or the crimes commited by John Calvin, the St Bartholemews Day Masscre, Salem witch trials, the gays beaten to death, and to say nothing of the fact that the very Hitler you brought up, was able to commit his atrocities against Jews by capitalizing on almost 2,000yrs of pogroms and passion plays leaving untold numbers of Jews dead or destroyed, etc etc. I can go on and on. The fact is that religion destory's lives AS WE SPEAK. |
Religion doesn�t destroy lives! HUMANS DO!!
Big difference! America is at war in Iraq not because GOD said so!
Because money and oil says so! Bush doesn�t get on TV and say AMERICA we are doing GODS WORK! Vietnam war again I don�t remember Nixon saying" Lets walk into the valley of the shadow of death"
Korean War! My fellow Americans Jesus wants us to help the Koreans!
MONEY KILLS, GREED KILLS, HUMAN BEINGS kill!! Not religion!
Religion is being abused, it�s been used by greedy kings or people in the past as an excuse to kill as a way to try to gain remorse from the tax payers! The people...
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Religion causes no good man to do evil? Do you think many of those burning protestants at the stake would have done so without Catholicism? Do you think the Japanese Kamikaze would have done what they did apart from Buddhism? Or Suicide bombers doing what they do apart from the quran?
Only religion can convince them to do what they do and have done. |
Ww2 suicide bombers were told that it�s a HIGHEST HONOR to sacrifice yourself for the freedom of your fellow people! Not to mention your families will not go unrewarded! Checks will be in the mail until you would have reached the aged of 65! FOR YOUR COUNTRY!!!
Religion becomes a personal choice to cope with the idea of death and not being afraid...
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The fact is you made my arguement for me. Religion was a survival tool, one that is now outdated. To keep it any longer is to risk danger. We don�t need it now. We have much better ways of explaining how things operate.
When Laplace (the man who came up with first model of our solar system) presented his theory to Napolean, Napolean asked him "where is God in this theory" to which Laplace simply said, "Well sir it doesnt NEED god to work." |
Sorry but he can�t explain the big bang! And I�m sure he can�t explain consciousness either...
Actually religion does have a lot of good points! It was a way to bring communities together! The first thing the settlers built in a new town was a church! Not only for prayer but for a meeting place and place to share common interests. I guess we can look at it as a hobby! Ways to make friends who share the same hobbies as you...
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| The fact is when a Muslim kills people in the name of Islam he isn�t doing it IN SPITE of the teachings of his faith, THATS WHAT HIS FAITH AND HOLY BOOK TELL HIM. The true dilquents in Islam are the ones NOT killing "infedels". And Before you ask me if I have read the quran the answer is yes. |
NO! If that were true you would see every Muslim in the world killing each other. Not just 19 suicide bombers at 911! I think there is about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today how many are killing in the name of ISLAM! None! They are killing because America is on their ass! They kill for control and money! Not because Mohamed tells them to in the book!
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| The Bible. Oh what a fantastic piece of literature and atrocious peice of history and moral teaching. A Book where Moses commands his legions to kill thousands and rape virgin children (only one of many episodes where God commands he chosen people to rape and maim and kill) Or gentle Jesus, who promises life ever lasting of servitude and thanks to to father (like North Korea where the only right you have is thanks to the Fatherly leader) and if you choose not to except a horrific blood sacrifice you never asked for you loving God with spit you hell for eternity |
Ways to control the people!
PAY TAX or you will go prison!
Stop at the red light or we will fine you!
Do this or we will put you in jail!
You are being controlled right now!
Not in the name of religion, in the name of the government!
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Explain to me how religion in anyway provides us with a perspective denied to philosophy, science, or literature and I might hear you out. Until then I don�t see how religion brings a thing to the table other than division and destuction of individual lives |
You have it backwards! And you are only focusing on the religionist extremists who are trying to win favor of the people by shouting ISLAM in the name of GOD! When they kill!
Fact is religion is peace! And religion is love! If you actually bothered to attend a church you will notice that the pastors are always talking about kindness! Love! And helping each other..
Science doesn�t provide this! Literature? Emm the bible? philosophy? And how do you explain philosophy can bring 50.000 people into a room?
Religion is hope! Religion is the cure of fear! Religion is what helps people through their lives! It�s an addiction! It�s a security blanket! It�s that drink or hit! It�s the remedy...
Now of course Education might set them free one day! But we are talking hundreds or thousands of years before this happens! Until science can perfectly explain all the mysteries we will have religion
Religion doesn�t hurt anybody! Atheists like to think it does! But with unanswered questions out there religion actually helps the people who need to believe death is not the end, what we understand as consciousness will not be terminated! To many people this is frightening! Believing in no god is scaring for many people! So why do atheists want set fear into people? If you ask me atheism is out to hurt others! You think by telling people there is no god and once you die its over! You will never see your loved ones again is actually helping the cause? Hahahahahaa
Everyone needs to come to terms with death in their own way! If religion helps people be better people so be it, if it helps them come to terms with death so be it!
Last edited by itaewonguy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Rumple wrote: |
| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
| Do you think the Japanese Kamikaze would have done what they did apart from Buddhism? |
Uh, for one thing, Kamikaze was based on Shinto beliefs (Kami is the Japanese Shinto word for "divine," or "spirit," because Shinto says that all natural things have kami, like rivers, mountains, trees, etc.) and for another thing, I think the Japanese fighter plane that flew behind the kamikaze planes with orders to shoot down anyone who didn't make their suicide attack did more to enforce compliance than any religious belief system. But you are obviously blathering about things you know little about. |
to be honest, i do not know what are you talking about on shinto and kamikaze. yeah kami is divine. so what, i even know kaze means wind. do you know that? what's your point to the discussion?
you just throwing bunch of names which you youself don't seem to understand. what for?
i can guarantee you that i know more about japan, japanese history, and world war ii history pacific battlefield than you do, and i can tell you one thing for sure - those kamikazi pilots burnt themselves not because of "japanese fighter plans following them".
and the japanese shinto is a mixture of belief in japanese emperor as the god, and japan as a country. not just some ancient "all natural things have kami, like rivers, mountains, trees, etc".
enough said. |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
religion might have been at the throne of certain governments in the past
But it was never forced on anyone to fully believe in it! Religion is a personal belief system. |
you gotta be kidding me. "it was never forced on anyone to fully beleive in it"?! were you born catholic or something? did you have any choice when you were born? one of the utmost stupid answer i've seen.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
There are still unanswered questions today. So what do we do first as a scientist! We refute the possibility of god and just say evolution, natural selection! Basically you don�t have an answer but because you have your own belief system of refuted god the answer is always IT WASNT GOD!
Ying and yang! |
sure. while scientists trying hard to solve those questions, you just say "oh, no bother, it's my god did this". simple and easy.
hey, where is your god who created human being? in your heart? or in your wet dreams?
believing in god, is one of the most irresponsible things a human could ever do - thank god for those who didn't believe in you. without those folks, we will still think that sun circles around the earth, and snakes can talk. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Buddhism is generally not big on intellectual explanations and if you are looking for something intellectual, the Dalai Lama's writings are not for you.
Buddhism is more - for lack of words - intuitive and individual. There is much wisdom there if you are inclined to accept it. There is nothing there you cannot understand on your own if your mind moves in that direction. You do not need his books unless you do need his books.
IMO, the Dalai Lama is a great man (buddha?). He has a very special karma, for whatever that is worth.
If you are looking for wisdom, it is not a bad place to look for it. |
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PBRstreetgang21
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL--- serving as man's paean to medocrity since 1971!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy you must not have read my second post on this page. You are quoting from my first post and the critiscims I felt were quite handily redressed in my second. I know its long but if you dont want to read it then quit arguing. If you do want to argue, please read so we can have a more full exchange of ideas.
as for extreme cases, Ill let someone with far greater linguistic skill than I sum it up:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=0VVYtJhbJHI
but you are right about one thing
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| It�s that drink or hit |
It is like a drink, like alcohol it may feel good, but rarely actually does good, and if you have too much of it you may kill a family of four. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| adios4ca wrote: |
you gotta be kidding me. "it was never forced on anyone to fully beleive in it"?! were you born catholic or something? did you have any choice when you were born? one of the utmost stupid answer i've seen.
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As a child maybe! Just as a child is forced to work, or forced into sex!
Or forced to be an atheist! Once the person comes of age he has the right to choose!
is it ok to beat your wife? well daddy exposed him to it so it must be!
its ok to call black people N..... cause daddy does it.. etc.. once you come of age you choose!!
Regards to what you are thinking, you are thinking because that person was born into a city where religious rule governs the land therefore that human being must obey to religious thought is BS!!!
Now in public sure he will be a good a sheep! But in his own mind he doesn�t have to believe in CHIT!!! He prays at the dinner table and gives thanks when no one is watching! Was he brainwashed? Well that�s the million dollar question isn�t it, someone�s delusional and both parties are pointing to the other...
HEY! I don�t follow the rules in society! I run red lights when no one is looking! I speed on the highway! I urine in the street! What�s your point?
I have governments throwing crap down my throat daily! Do I believe it?
Do I have to believe it? Am I am good citizen? am I brainwashed to believe 911??
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| sure. While scientists trying hard to solve those questions, you just say "oh, no bother, it's my god did this". Simple and easy. |
NO IM not saying that! I�m saying until the questions are answered leave religious folk alone!
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hey, where is your god who created human being? In your heart? Or in your wet dreams?
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You want to answer it with undisputable evidence? Ill be waiting!
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| believing in god, is one of the most irresponsible things a human could ever do - |
No you are wrong!
Because it is as much a possibility that there is a god of some kind! To there is no god at all! So it�s best to educate children that many people believe in god, a child should be exposed to religions! And the final choice should be made up to them! Atheism should not force their ideas down the Childs throat, either should religion! It should be educated fairly! As both camps have values!
when my daughter askes me "is there a god" I reply I dont know! no one knows for sure honey! people are trying to figure that out! I dont answer with certainty yes or no becuase that is the worse thing you can do to a child ok!!!
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| thank god for those who didn't believe in you. without those folks, we will still think that sun circles around the earth, and snakes can talk. |
Ohhh the arrogance of man!! Gotta love it!
So you think all the questions have been answered huh!
We are so far from the ideas it�s impossible to comprehend it!
You need to ask yourself some serious questions! and stop quoting Hitchens! |
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PBRstreetgang21
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL--- serving as man's paean to medocrity since 1971!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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I�m saying until the questions are answered leave religious folk alone!
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First of all I DO LEAVE THEM ALONE. Its them there are not leaving US alone! Im not going in their churches and knocking on their doors to quit believeing! Im not trying have their children believe what I do! THEY ARE THE ONES KNOCKING ON MY DOOR, SHOUTING IN OUR HALLS OF GOVERNMENT, TEACHING GARBAGE IN OUR SCHOOLS!
You act as if religion is a benign force, but its not. Its a deadly force, and manipulating force. It is powerful and if not controlled wreak untolled havoc. Yes let the religious be religious in their homes, but the religious arent content to do that. You want to teach your children the world was created in six days because a book written by a dead man says so I cant stop you. But keep it out of public life. I dont want in schools. Just this week my homestate of Florida has now mandated the teaching of creationism in schools, were I have two sisters currently enrolled in elementary. We have a president insisting God told him to invade Iraq. No. No. It is not athiests cramming ANYTHING down ANYONES throat. It is the other way around. I am a Buddhist but I keep my prayers and prostrations confined to my bedroom. I am sick of other people trying to get in mine and put theirs in my sister's school. I dont want it, no sir no way. You want to believe in fairy tales because you are to weak to accept the universe for what it is, that is your loss. Stop trying to make it other's as well. We suffer enough as it is we dont need another "yoke" the be rung around our necks like an albatross.
Secondly, this response implicity states that they are right until otherwise show. The problem with your argument is that religion provided no claims outside of solipsisms. Science on the other hand is based of evidence. You are saying that we cannot dissprove God so therefore we should not dismiss it. When no one has disproven pink unicorns so we should not dismiss those either. The world does not work that way. If I come to you and say that an alien just gave me the secret to eternal life, you wouldnt say to me "I cannot disprove it therefore I accept it."
What can be suggested without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
The universe is not a perfect place, its callous and arbitrary and it along with us mammalian humans behave and evolved exactly as a place should be expected to without a benevolent creator. Just look at the fact that 98% of all species that ever existed on this planet are now extinct. Or how the human eye percieves everything backwards and upside down.
You cannot compare science a religion, science has facts and religion has simulacra and solipsism. Science cannot disprove God, even Richard Dawkins one the worlds most hardened athiests admits to the possibility of proving Gods exisitence. However, until such time, science has managed to prove that whether a God exists or not, the universe operates without one. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| PBRstreetgang21 wrote: |
[
First of all I DO LEAVE THEM ALONE. Its them there are not leaving US alone! Im not going in their churches and knocking on their doors to quit believeing! Im not trying have their children believe what I do! THEY ARE THE ONES KNOCKING ON MY DOOR, SHOUTING IN OUR HALLS OF GOVERNMENT, TEACHING GARBAGE IN OUR SCHOOLS!
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I know! its out of contol!
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I dont want in schools. Just this week my homestate of Florida has now mandated the teaching of creationism in schools, were I have two sisters currently enrolled in elementary. We have a president insisting God told him to invade Iraq. No. No. It is not athiests cramming ANYTHING down ANYONES throat. It is the other way around. I am a Buddhist but I keep my prayers and prostrations confined to my bedroom. I am sick of other people trying to get in mine and put theirs in my sister's school. I dont want it, no sir no way. You want to believe in fairy tales because you are to weak to accept the universe for what it is, that is your loss. Stop trying to make it other's as well. We suffer enough as it is we dont need another "yoke" the be rung around our necks like an albatross
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I am not the one who needs convincing! Why don�t you write a letter to your congressmen! I mean you present a good argument no reason they shouldn�t believe you. I mean they are educated people right?
The evidence is over whelming how can they not see it?
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| Secondly, this response implicity states that they are right until otherwise show. The problem with your argument is that religion provided no claims outside of solipsisms. Science on the other hand is based of evidence. You are saying that we cannot dissprove God so therefore we should not dismiss it. When no one has disproven pink unicorns so we should not dismiss those either. The world does not work that way. If I come to you and say that an alien just gave me the secret to eternal life, you wouldnt say to me "I cannot disprove it therefore I accept it." |
You are right I am not disagreeing with you about that!
But! On the case of the universe it�s a different story and pink unicorns are a creation! God is the creator it�s a different analogy! And can�t be argued like children debating who will win superman or batman!
But atheists love to fight that way! You just can�t when it comes to god...
We know pink unicorns don�t exist becuase it was created in our minds but we are breathing and can imagine them so therefore leaves room for a possible created race.
Consciousness and our very existence the complexity and impossibilities of life leave room to a possible creator. Pink unicorns or fairies are children�s fantasies! god is not! god created the fantasies there lies the argument. Richard dawkins tries to argue like a 6 year old...
Scientists can�t explain consciousness, and many other things you want to say well its evolution and natural selection then so be it! I�m sorry to say their leaves plenty of room of creationism.
Now before you fly off the handle! I am neither a theist nor an atheist!
I am Sweden ok! I sit on the fence I am Agnostic.
I also believe the way governments, especially USA and muslin countries educate religion is over the top... but I dont agree it should be taken out completely, just taught differently
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| What can be suggested without evidence can be dismissed without evidence? |
Round and round and round and round the merry go round
 as long as the world keeps turning so will these questions!
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| The universe is not a perfect place, its callous and arbitrary and it along with us mammalian humans behave and evolved exactly as a place should be expected to without a benevolent creator. Just look at the fact that 98% of all species that ever existed on this planet are now extinct. Or how the human eye percieves everything backwards and upside down. |
except we cannot understand how it�s possible we are talking, thinking, surviving,have freewill, emotions and breathing, etc.........or why we are here or how we got here..
Sure we can all guess!!
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| You cannot compare science a religion, science has facts and religion has simulacra and solipsism. Science cannot disprove God, even Richard Dawkins one the world�s most hardened athiests admits to the possibility of proving Gods exisitence. However, until such time, science has managed to prove that whether a God exists or not, the universe operates without one |
Emmmmm, has science actually proven that the universe operates without a god? Hey maybe GOD turned on the machine and went out to lunch! How the F**K do we know!?
Sure science can present the most intelligent scenario based on research, theories, evidence and probabilities! Chhhhiiittt with those odds it�s like going to the horse track and beating on the sure thing but what happen? The dark horse comes from now where and wins the race, "no one saw that coming"
Sorry Atheists you need to do a lot more than make up scenarios to get me on your side! The bible never sold me I tossed that book under the bed when I was like 7! Even though I went to catholic school my whole life I never paid attention to the book! Then again as a kid I was confused enough with hair growing on my balls I didn�t really care how Noah got 1 million animals in a boat or Moses parted the red sea hahahaah |
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