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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| bovinerebel wrote: |
Sorry Koramerican. To try and validate these riots would be to say that it was a fair and measured response to the fact that Koreans will have the option of eating 30 month American beef , which americans themselves eat , with more likelyhood of dying by chocking on it than by any disease.
If that makes sense to you then you are more Korean than America. It makes no sense. If you have any freaking sense at all people would admit they were wrong and extremely silly. The absurdity of this all is beyond embaressing for Korea. Never before have I seen such a display of utter stupidity. |
I'm not embarrassed by this at all. I think Lee is an oppressive elitist who stupidly described himself as the CEO of Korea. What is he going to do fire Koreans who disagree with him?
Of course different countries have different democratic culture/traditions based on history and national temperament. With a few exceptions, today's protester with his/her candle is far milder than the past as are the police.
He has no ideas and only parrots some thoughts he has picked up along the way. The English emersion plan he touted at the beginning of his administration has been dropped like it never existed. I'm still waiting for him to conduct all his meetings in English.
As one politician said from his own party, the conservatives got into power not because they were better but because the public was simply sick of Roh. |
Furry muff. I think you'll find I admire a bit of civil disobedience. But so misguided....I'd love to see this type of action for something meanginful. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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komerican wrote
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| The fact that the professor thought it a worthy topic for research shows that it's not so beyond the realm of possibility. We know for example that whites and blacks are more or less susceptible to certain diseases. Statistics are often kept on how diseases affect different racial groups differently and in different frequency. It is not irrational to question whether mad cow disease, a disease that is a mystery to many people, affects the races differently. However, this issue has not been part of the main thrust against this agreement. |
It's not irrational at all to posit a hypothesis. It is however completely irrational to call that hypothesis an indisputable fact, which is what the media and the protesters are doing, even though the scientist who created the hypothesis says they are crazy for doing so. By the way, when he publicly confirmed it was merely a theory and no conclusions could be drawn from it, the protesters, being the rational folks they are, went to his house and threw manure at it. Read about that here.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/05/08/mad-cow-disease-professor-likes-us-beef-mad-as-hell-about-controversy/
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| This reflects the frustration of Koreans in basically NOT knowing the quality of the beef they will be consuming. The deal was made during President Lee's meeting with Bush and the perception was that the deal was more a political concession for better relations with the US. So instead of putting Korean food safety concerns first the perception was that it was part of a political deal. This is in contrast to how the USDA handled Canadian beef over 30 months old. The USDA made the determination independent of any at least perceived political deal. |
But they would know if they�d just turn off their cell phones and pick up a reputable Korean newspaper. It meets OIE standards and exceeds Korean standards. What else do they want? And, once again, for the second or third time (hoping you�ll get it this time) the deal to let the beef in was made by Pres. Roh last year not LMB.
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| People are actually questioning those standards. The standards used by the US beef industry do not inspire confidence with Koreans. |
But Korean standards, which are lower, do inspire them? Does that make sense to you?
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| But the main issue is still imported beef. The US stopped imported Canadian beef older than 30 months even though no Canadian has died from this. So clearly the US also reserves the right to stop foreign beef that is older than 30 months. The issue is imported beef not domestic beef. I agree that Americans do eat their domestic beef over 30 months but it still had the right to stop Canadian beef over 30 months. Koreans should have that right also. |
Again, for the second or third time they do have this right. It's found under Article XX of GATT and was confirmed by the US last month.
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| as Doggjyi pointed out Korea is not exporting its meat and hence has not even tried to meet those standards. The US is a huge beef exporting country to most of the world so its status under OIE is under more scrutiny. |
No, Korea does not export beef. It just serves it up to its own citizenry without doing adequate testing to insure it�s safe. It then turns around to the rest of the world who have higher standards for domestic and exported product and lectures them on food safety issues. Does the word �arrogance� mean anything in this country?
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Wrong Howie, but I won't use the hyper-inflated language you use and call you a liar as you call Koreans.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2008/06/202_24476.html
"The original April 18 beef trade deal allows South Korea to ban U.S. beef imports only if the World Organization for Animal Health downgrades the U.S. status in terms of the disease following its outbreak." |
Again, for the second or third time GATT provisions supersede any FTA. It doesn�t matter what the FTA says, If there is another outbreak of mad cow in the US, Korea is perfectly entitled under international law to refuse to accept further imports. See my previous links on the issue if you don�t understand.
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| The issue is with the way LMB carried out the negotiations. The issue before was with bone-in-beef which is now allowed under this agreement. Keep in mind that most Koreans have no problem with millions of tons of American beef the only issue is with 30 months and over. |
Again, Roh made this commitment, not LMB. Again, see the previous links that show this and this time, if you want to continue to have a serious discussion on this point, please read them.
LMB was elected last year by a landslide with a clear and unequivocal mandate to improve the slumping Korean economy. Now people are suggesting that his first step in furtherance of that pursuit should have been to maintain the ban on US beef which in turn would have killed the KORUS FTA. You just gotta feel sorry for this guy. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| howie2424 wrote: |
| Again, for the second or third time |
It's not worth it man. He simply doesn't get it.
Thanks for posting and many of us appreciate your research and arguments. |
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Grab the Chickens Levi
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Location: Ilsan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| endo wrote: |
| howie2424 wrote: |
| Again, for the second or third time |
It's not worth it man. He simply doesn't get it.
Thanks for posting and many of us appreciate your research and arguments. |
Oh, he gets it.
He's a troll.
He trolls but posts in a calm, rational manner to serve as a smokescreen.
Am I really the only one who gets it? I realised this a long time ago.
He is a troll. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesome Howie. Now someone please translate and link all the articles into a Korean article and get it over the net. There's going to be a lot of egg on faces. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I doubt anyone is going to listen. The herd mentality is too overwhelming. There will however be a lot of egg on people's faces when the new and improved domestic mad cow testing regime goes into effect here and they find a mad cow or two in one of their own herds. Korea used the same animal feed that is suspected of causing the disease until 2004. In virtually every country where they used that feed and extensive testing was done, they found at least one. I wonder what they will say then. |
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Grab the Chickens Levi
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Location: Ilsan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| howie2424 wrote: |
| I doubt anyone is going to listen. The herd mentality is too overwhelming. There will however be a lot of egg on people's faces when the new and improved domestic mad cow testing regime goes into effect here and they find a mad cow or two in one of their own herds. Korea used the same animal feed that is suspected of causing the disease until 2004. In virtually every country where they used that feed and extensive testing was done, they found at least one. I wonder what they will say then. |
They wont say a thing about it of course, it's not their style is it? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| howie2424 wrote: |
| a reputable Korean newspaper |
Therein lies the problem. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| howie2424 wrote: |
Scotticus wrote
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| Haha, I love having a poster who's willing to put in the time to expose every one of komerican's lies. Watching him get smoked is one of my favorite pastimes on Dave's. |
Actually, I'm only here because my wife's away this weekend and I'm bored. I really don�t want to embarrass anyone, and I'm glad there is a Korean perspective here in this debate, but just look at the myths that have been completely busted in the past week or so in the various threads on this topic.
1. Koreans are more susceptible to Mad Cow Disease than Caucasians (completely false. Even the Korean scientist who wrote the only paper positing this theory admits this is just a hypothesis at best, no conclusions should be drawn from his paper and only further research can establish its validity. See here http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200805/200805090017.html
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/05/08/mad-cow-disease-professor-likes-us-beef-mad-as-hell-about-controversy/ ) |
The fact that the professor thought it a worthy topic for research shows that it's not so beyond the realm of possibility. We know for example that whites and blacks are more or less susceptible to certain diseases. Statistics are often kept on how diseases affect different racial groups differently and in different frequency. It is not irrational to question whether mad cow disease, a disease that is a mystery to many people, affects the races differently. However, this issue has not been part of the main thrust against this agreement.
| Quote: |
| 2. The US beef being imported is beef Americans won�t eat (complete lie) |
This reflects the frustration of Koreans in basically NOT knowing the quality of the beef they will be consuming. The deal was made during President Lee's meeting with Bush and the perception was that the deal was more a political concession for better relations with the US. So instead of putting Korean food safety concerns first the perception was that it was part of a political deal. This is in contrast to how the USDA handled Canadian beef over 30 months old. The USDA made the determination independent of any at least perceived political deal.
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| 3. The US beef being imported doesn�t pass US inspection standards (complete lie) |
People are actually questioning those standards. The standards used by the US beef industry do not inspire confidence with Koreans.
Good point.
But the main issue is still imported beef. The US stopped imported Canadian beef older than 30 months even though no Canadian has died from this. So clearly the US also reserves the right to stop foreign beef that is older than 30 months. The issue is imported beef not domestic beef. I agree that Americans do eat their domestic beef over 30 months but it still had the right to stop Canadian beef over 30 months. Koreans should have that right also.
as Doggjyi pointed out Korea is not exporting its meat and hence has not even tried to meet those standards. The US is a huge beef exporting country to most of the world so its status under OIE is under more scrutiny.
Yes, the US does import Canadian beef over 30 months NOW. But for about 5 years and billions of dollars in losses for Canada the US banned Canadian beef over 30 months. Also, the fact that the US market is now open to Canadian beef over 30 month is extremely problematic. It's not only me but the US Cattlemen's Association also comes out against Canadian beef.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=0162e101-698e-4b8b-87e8-ea80430e050f
"Allowing re-entry of older Canadian cattle and beef has created an "unjustified and unnecessary increased risk of infection of U.S. cattle with BSE," R-Calf argued even as the USDA offered scientific evidence to the contrary. Particularly helpful to the USDA is how such evidence made cheap Canadian cattle and beef available for its large meat packing industry...The policy of trying to keep your competitor's diseases out of your herd and population did not require scientific proof that the disease would be fatal," says an important book by Patrick van Zwanenberg and Erik Millstone of the University of Sussex in Brighton, U.K., "it was sufficient for it to be unwelcome...in the 1970s, American scientists began to admit that science simply couldn't answer all questions. Moreover, some argued, "scientific measurement of risk was profoundly influenced by conflicting values" and was not therefore "neutral or objective."
Wrong Howie, but I won't use the hyper-inflated language you use and call you a liar as you call Koreans.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2008/06/202_24476.html
"The original April 18 beef trade deal allows South Korea to ban U.S. beef imports only if the World Organization for Animal Health downgrades the U.S. status in terms of the disease following its outbreak."
This part of the deal was absurd and was basically giving up sovereignty on this issue. Koreans were justifiably incensed about this and their demonstrations at least were able to change this unfair part of the agreement.
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| 9. LMB changed the deal on US beef when he met Bush to allow 30 month+ beef in (false, Pres. Roh agreed to this in 2007. LMB just followed through on his commitment) |
The issue is with the way LMB carried out the negotiations. The issue before was with bone-in-beef which is now allowed under this agreement. Keep in mind that most Koreans have no problem with millions of tons of American beef the only issue is with 30 months and over.
Again, I won't call you a liar the way you emotionally call Koreans, but you are wrong. Roh continued to oppose beef older than 30 months. One of the reasons he didn't conclude a deal with the US was over this point.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/05/116_23966.html
"During a National Assembly hearing on the beef issue last week, Park said the former government had maintained consistent rules in the beef negotiations with the United States such as the import ban on beef cuts from cows more than 30 months old. "
As I wrote before there's nothing wrong with having this standard for imported beef. The US banned Canadian beef over 30 months for five years costing Canadians over a billion dollars.
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| Every single one of these is an exaggeration, half truth or outright falsehood. What�s left? It astounds me that so many people could be on the streets protesting on the basis of this misinformation. |
It's should be clear to those who have been following this issue that the Korean demonstrators do have a point. To argue that science can provide all the answers or that science is on our side is absurd since since the scientists don't have all the answers which the US cattlemen's association themeselves have pointed out. |
I really enjoyed this post and reading your point of view.
I agree with the fact that Korea can set its own standards in regards to imported goods. I can see however, an eventual downturn in trade with Korea if other countries feel said standards are ot "fair, forthright, and balanced". But hey, that's Korea's call, and Korea will have to deal with those effects.
That being said though, your explanation still falls way short of explaining the fervor paid to this issue.
I happened upon a rally last night and saw thousands marching... and smoking. That's right, a good portion of them were puffing away as they walked.
With cancer being such a killer in Korea (and the rest of the world), and so many things "higher on the list" for danger, why all the excitement here?
Do you believe that 100,000+ would take to the streets if this was an issue with Vietnamese beef? |
The number of deaths is not relevant since this is a preventive measure. People are trying to avoid the situation where we wake up twenty years later and find that thousands have been infected as the British did, although their numbers were smaller.
As for Viet beef, yes, if the Vietnamese sold millions of tons of beef to Korea. Many countries have limited bans on US beef and street protests over controversial issues happen everywhere.
There are various factors for the protests but as others have pointed out we have:
1) An arrogant buyer, the Lee Administration and their authoritarian ways,
2) An arrogant seller, the US, and their obstinate refusal to do more testing, and
3) Korea's long history of courageous street protesting that began about three decades ago. The protesters are heroes who are saying, Hell No!; we want the same standards as the rest of the world is using not just something that the US meat-processing industry wants.
At the end of the day, this is a simple sales contract. The seller is being foolish in trying to force the buyer to buy when all the seller has to do is increase testing.
The arrogance of the seller is apparent by the comments of the US ambassador Vershbow. With all due respect to him, his job is not to lecture to Koreans about "Science". I mean what a way to sell beef! Lecture to your customers! haha.
Last edited by komerican on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| For those who think this is nothing to do with anti americanism. I just spoke to a class and presented my case to them. Being a nice enthusiastic bunch they cried out in protest but I was well prepared and presented them the facts. I'd say by the end of the class most were laughing about it and I'd won them over. It was not actually hard to convince them that they were not in any real danger from American beef. But when we concluded they still said they wouldn't buy american beef. Why ? Well quite simply they told me they hated America and Korea should protest their beef whether it was dangerous or not. They found this very funny. |
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ardis
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
3) Korea's long history of courageous street protesting that began about three decades ago. The protesters are heroes who are saying, Hell No!; we want the same standards as the rest of the world is using not just something that the US meat-processing industry wants.
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Courageous street protesting. Right. I'm all for a good protest (lived in DC for a while, had a lot of hippie friends), but...I'm only a fan of them when 1) the people in attendance are well-informed enough to answer any questions that the opposition could ask and 2) when they are non-violent. If I hear one more person spout a fabricated piece of evidence, I might vomit. There is a gross amount of exaggerations, misinformations, and lies being passed around. If I were at a protest for liberation in North Korea, for example, and I heard a fellow protester saying things that aren't factual, it wouldn't matter if they were there for the same reason as me--it would still be embarrassing and I wouldn't want them there. Having preteens marching with candles or toddlers dressed up in crazy cow tshirts doesn't exactly seem like the most well-informed bunch.
Secondly, last night's protest wasn't violent, thank goodness, but others have been. There is nothing courageous in a bunch of punks who want to mess with the police who are just trying to stop them from storming the President's office. Once again, I have tons of incredibly liberal friends at home who aren't fans of police authorities, but resorting to violence is anything but "courageous." It's childish and brings little sympathy for the cause. If that's all they can do, then it's pretty pathetic. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Demonstrations here are theater, and not even political theater. Nobody's trying to make a point, just throwing a tantrum. |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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komerican wrote
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There are various factors for the protests but as others have pointed out we have:
1) An arrogant buyer, the Lee Administration and their authoritarian ways,
2) An arrogant seller, the US, and their obstinate refusal to do more testing, and
3) Korea's long history of courageous street protesting that began about three decades ago. The protesters are heroes who are saying, Hell No!; we want the same standards as the rest of the world is using not just something that the US meat-processing industry wants.
At the end of the day, this is a simple sales contract. The seller is being foolish in trying to force the buyer to buy when all the seller has to do is increase testing.
The arrogance of the seller is apparent by the comments of the US ambassador Vershbow. With all due respect to him, his job is not to lecture to Koreans about "Science". I mean what a way to sell beef! Lecture to your customers! haha. |
I give up. 
Last edited by howie2424 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dome Vans
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| People are trying to avoid the situation where we wake up twenty years later and find that thousands have been infected as the British did, although their numbers were smaller. |
I'm sorry, did I miss something about my home country? Or is this just a sweeping generalisation?
Note to Koamerican, 28 Days Later was not a documentary!! |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Great article here. Seems taking the CSAT entrance exam is more dangerous than eating US beef.
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Emotions Sweep Reason, Perspective
By Peter Sylvestre
Professor of Korea University
Here we go again. Tens of thousands of Koreans (mostly the young) are taking to the streets, holding candles aloft.
In 2002, a similar wave of anti-U.S. sentiment resulted from the unfortunate case of two Korean schoolgirls who were killed in an accident involving U.S. Forces.
The resulting outcry, which was delayed on account of the World Cup, nearly severed the security alliance between the two countries. Now, tens of thousands are marching against a new threat from the U.S., this time in the form of ``crazy cow'' disease.
How dangerous is BSE to Koreans? According to Britain's National Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease Surveillance Unit (NCJDSU), as of May 2008, three Americans have died of variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD) disease, the human form of BSE (humans do not actually die from BSE directly and the link between vCJD and BSE has yet to be proven). Of these three, two lived in the U.K. between 1980 and 1996 when Britain suffered an outbreak of vCJD.
Even if we accept the link between vCJD and BSE, the gross statistical risk of catching vCJD/BSE from U.S. beef is 1/100,000,000 (3 deaths out of a total population of 300 million). The Vegetarian Journal (2006) estimated the percentage of non-meat eaters at 6.7 percent, leaving at least 1/90,000,000. Assuming a Korean population of 48,000,000 consuming U.S. beef in CJ/BSE-inducing quantities, approximately 0.6 Koreans will die from vCJD/BSE, statistically. This is far less than almost any other cause of death in Korea, electric fans included.
Yet, this statistically insignificant threat (or more accurately, the hysterical response to it) may yet kill Koreans. If it is accepted that the FTA will add 2 percent to Korea's $1.26 trillion GDP (2007), the value of KORUS FTA to Korea can be estimated at $20.52 billion.
If the mad cow hysteria is allowed to sink the KORUS FTA, it will take approximately 25 Korean lives to make up the $20.52 billion shortfall. This figure is derived from the Korean occupational fatality rate of 1,533 in 2000 or 16.6 deaths per 100,000 workers reported by the Korea Occupational Safety and Health Agency. Dividing the $1.26 trillion GDP by 1,533 reveals that one Korean worker dies for every $820 million of GDP generated. Given the political climate in the U.S., KORUS FTA may very well fail not in Korea but in the U.S. and these anti-U.S. protests are certainly not helping.
Thus, Korea's youth are becoming hysterical over an issue they barely comprehend. May I recommend a more befitting target for their energy and passion: the national university CSAT entrance exam?
In November 2007, 600,000 students took the CSAT. Of them, one student committed suicide right after taking the test on November 15 by jumping from his apartment building, and twin sisters in Changwon, South Gyeongsang Province did the same in December after receiving their test scores, according to the JoongAng Daily (December 11).
Thus, at least three deaths out of 200,000 (1:200,000) died as a direct result of the CSAT. Given Korea's population of 48 million, we can infer a comparative figure of 240 deaths from the CSAT compared to less than one from BSE-contaminated beef (assuming a link with Creutzfeldt-Jakob in the first place).
The figure may be far higher as 764 students committed suicide between 2000 to 2006, according to MoE statistics (Daily Surprise, Jan 5, 2008, Internet). Of course, these students unfortunately end their lives for a variety of reasons, from bullying to humiliation by teachers to economic distress.
Nonetheless, the CSAT remains a far greater killer of Korean children than mad cows. Where are their candlelight vigils?
As for the argument that even one death from BSE-infected cows is too much, I would ask, ``Why stop at U.S. beef imports?'' Apply the same standard across the board. Look at all sources of mortality in this country and see the ramifications that even one death is enough to terminate a trade practice.
My intent is not to voice support of the FTA or necessarily change peoples' minds. Frankly, I neither see the people of Korea as ready for an FTA with the U.S. nor do I desire to influence the decisions they make concerning their own future.
Rather, I produced this out of frustration that this nation all too often allows its emotions to sweep all reason and perspective aside even at elite universities here.
Such a low level of public discourse, fueled by a non-critical media and over-politicized secondary school teachers' unions, will not only compound the difficulties this country and its graduates will face in a rapidly changing region but highlights the desperate need for educational reform at the most fundamental level.
The writer is an invited professor of the Korea University. He can be reached through [email protected] |
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2008/06/139_25622.html |
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