Korean Job Discussion Forums

[DongtanTony]

Is it just me...or has anyone else noticed the bombardment of complaints from public school and university teachers in the past few weeks.

It seems like more and more...public schools, and universities for that matter...are choreographing their moves from the hagwon playbooks.

Some of the recent public school/uni threads:
Being asked to do things out of your public school contract
Help! Need advice!
crazy follow-up on sickday post
Pub School wants me to go on teacher's trip
Haven't been paid for my overtime
Teacher's Pension Plan (not National)
I will never work for Gepik again.
New rule: can't renew with same public school, i was told
SMOE WARNING: Housing at the Co-op Residence


And those are just from page one of the most current threads.

When I look at the hagwon threads, I find:
Does your school reward you for helping to recruit?
3 million won
Must leave great job for family emergency. What should I do?
Income tax. My recruiter states new guidelines exist.
Uijeongbu ECC

If I were a newbie...weighing the pros and cons...it looks to me that hagwons are generally the better option.

There are plenty of us that are happy with our hagwons...have the possibility of upward mobility...and do get paid on-time with proper taxable/benefit deductions.

Heck...most people are calling university positions "unigwons," because you can't get tenure or a renumeration package relative to your experience and/or colleague's positions, and they are increasingly taking vacation time away for camps and other additional programs.

It seems to me that a well researched, well organized, and well referenced hagwon would take precedent to these positions any day of the week.

Let's get some feedback from the Dave's faithful for prospective newbies.

[Insidejohnmalkovich]

[Aussiekimchi]

I have also noticed a hint of negativity on this board over the past 6 or 7 years....what's up with that?!

[tob55]

DongtanTony,

I just had a thought occur to me. Didn't you mention at one time you ran a hagwon or had some kind of close involvement in a hagwon? Forgive me for asking this if you are not involved in any way with the hagwon industry, but wouldn't having a close relationship with the very group this thread appears to support be a conflict of interest and simply be an attempt to illicit biased responses?

Thanks for giving me and the others on the board your clarification.

[Cracker006]

Just a guess, but maybe it's because public schools do very heavy recruiting in March?

I am irritated with the seminar and my incompitent handler, but other than that, and a few problem classes... I love my public school job.

[Gamecock]

Yeah, i wouldn't say that polling a Dave's crowd is a good sample of the teachers in Korea. Most of the happy teachers I know don't spend their time here.

I would say the increase in complaints by public school teachers is simply the fact that there are far more PS teachers than there ever were in the past. The number of PS teachers has easily doubled (if not more) in the last couple of years. So there are bound to be more complaints. And if you judge the veracity of some of these complaints that you've listed, you'll find that a good portion of the people are either spineless (and would get taken advantage of ANYWHERE in Korea), or are the types that would complain about ANY job they had. There are some genuine complaints, but alot of B.S. as well. Proof that hogwans are better? Hmmmm...

I know there are people that are happy in their good hogwans. I also know there are people who have had a difficult time in their public schools (from this board, that is). Personally, EVERY public school teacher I know who has worked at both hogwans and a public school say they would NEVER go back to hogwanworld. But that's just the people I know.

There are pros and cons to Public Schools and hogwans. I think a good hogwan is a good place for a newbie to start, because they will have a better intial support structure and social connections with other foreigners. In a public school you are kind of on your own, which is great for someone who knows his way around Korea a bit, but is difficult for a newbie.

Your odds of getting screwed over financially at a public school are not even comparable to hogwanland. Yes, there are good hogwans. There are MORE bad ones that will try to do everything they can to keep from paying you in full. Being paid a day or two late at a PS because the accountant was absent minded is not comparable to the instability of getting paid late at a hogwan because the owner doesn't have the cash flow to pay his employees. And even if you are paid a day late at a PS, you still get paid for the SAME MONTH YOU ARE WORKING IN, not 10 or 15 days after the month is completed.

In a hogwan there may or may not be upward mobility. Most hogwans cap their salaries the same as public schools do, they are just not as up front about it. In any case, the idea of upward mobility is VERY LIMITED in the ESL industry. I was the head teacher at a big hogwan chain and took a paycut to go to a PS. But while my base salary is less, I make about 500,000 more a month in my overtime at my public school (all of which falls into my 9-4 schedule). At my public school anything over 88 hours a month is overtime (in actuality, all my extra classes are paid, even if I don't work my full schedule of 88 hours a month). At your average hogwan you have to work 120 hours before you seen any overtime.

In a hogwan you will probably have smaller classes, unless you teach at a rural public school like me. Smaller classes are good. In a hogwan you will have to deal with demands and whims of mothers, unless you have a really superb dierctor, which is rare. In a public school you will have to deal with a co-teacher, which can be positive or negative.

In a public school you will have many more holidays and the possiblity of much more vacation. I have more random holidays and days off at my public school than i had VACATION at any hogwan I worked at. The biggest reason i switched to a public school job was so that I could realistically visit my family every year for a decent amount of time. In hogwans this can be very difficult, as you're only give a week off at a time. Some good hogwans will give you extra time to go home if it is unpaid, or if you can find a replacement to cover your classes when you are gone.

I'm not anti-hogwan in that I know there are some good ones. Being able to identify them is tricky (especially from abroad!). If you have a good hogwan job and are happy. That's great. I hope you pass it on to someone else who can also enjoy it after you leave. At the same time there are great jobs in the public schools which give an entirely different experience of Korea than one can get in a hogwan.

Each situation is different, as are people. To label hogwans as better for everyone or public schools as superior is ridiculous. And there are good and bad hogwans as well as good and bad public school jobs. Are you a social person who needs to be surrounded by other foreigners? Then a good, big hogwan is probably the place to start your journey. If you are more independent, a public school might be better. Do you want to teach small classes? Do you want to interact with Korean culture? Do you want free to time to write a book? Do you want to be able to travel alot during your year? There are tons of factors.

Don't listen to people like Tony and Wylies. They are extremists who seem to have a hate-on for whatever they are not a part of.

[Dome Vans]

[Aussiekimchi]

Whoa!!!!
Gamecock and Dome Vans!!!
Is it really necessary to make rational sense within your posts on this board????
Please..give yourselves an uppercut!
Let's get back to the ranting people!

[DongtanTony]

[ttompatz]

I would like to come in here and support DT.

I think EVERY newbie should spend a year in purgatory (er, hagwon land).

Then they would have some idea how to deal with the bureaucracy in the public school system.

After they have been screwed out of their (lawfully mandated) NHIC medical and pension benefits, overtaxed as a subcontractor or self employed person, cheated out of their overtime or fired in their 11th month they will have a much better understanding of how the game is played. They will appreciate not having to work 120-160 classes per month for the same pay as a public teacher doing 88.

Public schools suck. You get your legally mandated benefits, don't have to worry about getting paid, more holiday time (up to 6 calendar weeks or more instead of 10 days), extra un-contracted benefits and days off, extra pay for classes over and above 88 per month.

Yup, certainly not a nice way to spend a year or two abroad.

.

[Hank the Iconoclast]

[Otherside]

Hagwon's and PSs have there pro's and con's, I'm in a PS now, and its not without its problems.
My problems include having to go to a staff dinner on Friday night, once the accountant forgot to pay me (when I told him 3 days later, I was paid within the hour) and having to schedule my vacation at the end of the summer holiday not at the beginning...and of course the GEPIK training seminar, 5 days during the week.
Contrast this to my problems working at a hagwon; I had to fight for 3 months for medical, was taxed at 3.3%, was supposed to teach 30 classes a week..."teaching" hours turned that 40 classes week, finding out that my meagre 10 days of vacation included weekends and public holidays.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg~~
I agree there are a lot of bad PS threads going around but with few exceptions hagwons screw you over far far more..

As a side note, a few months ago I was at a regional Gepik workshop, a couple of the teachers were unhappy (some with legitimate complaints...others seemed to whine a bit) however, all the teachers I spoke to were somewhere between happy and very happy with their positions. Many of them had hagwon experience and like myself likened the two to chalk and cheese. Last year when I used to go out with my hagwon buddies (all working at dif schools) we'd spend 90% of the time bitching about work...and everybody had it pretty rough, this year when I hang out with PS buddies, work counts perhaps 10-20% of the conversation, amusing anecdotes etc.

[Mr. BlackCat]

You look at any job anywhere and you'll find things people are unhappy with. My sister works 25 hours a week, lives on a tropical island and has a ridiculous amount of vacation to spend her ridiculous salary on. But she emails me at least once a month to complain about her job.

Most of the complaints I see from PS teachers are then normal kind like this. I don't like my co-workers, I'm not given the proper materials to do my job, they won't let me take my vacation exactly when I want to, I don't get paid enough for this bs, etc.

The complaints from hagwons (and I've made some of them myself) are much more serious. Not getting paid, being fired at the 11th month, being refused OT payment and vacation, etc.

Everytime I find myself worrying if my PS will let me take the 5 weeks off in summer or make me come in for the mornings, I remind myself of last summer when my hagwon refused to pay me almost a million won for OT and screwed me on vacation. Oh, the memories.

Either way, one more year and I'm retiring to my sister's couch.

[adventure pidgey]

As a soon-to-be newbie, I wanted to thank DT for this thread. For a while there, I was actually reconsidering my decision to go the PS route for my first job but the thoughtful (rational) responses so far have convinced me the risks are still greater for taking a hogwan, especially for a first-timer applying from overseas (as tempting as it is to willingly subject myself to Korean Purgatory...)

[quote="Gamecock"]

[Nexus11]