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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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The kids are seing you as a non-teacher. Goof-off time. That's a common experience for foreign teachers. It takes a bit of grit from you to let them know that you want to be treated with the same respect as a Korean teacher.
8 years teaching in Korea, English single honors BA and TESL certificate, and I still have to teach every new class that I'm a real teacher and I demand the same respect as a Korean teacher gets automatically.
Welcome to ESL Korea. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| edited for nastiness-MOD ACTION |
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raclos234
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: How much brattyness and insanity is acceptable? |
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| So my question is. What kind of discipline level should I be achieving? Is there a certain level of insanity that will always exist? Is it innevitable that some classes will go out of control and that's just how it is? What do you all think that the school wants me to do in this area? |
the answer about the level of discipline depends on u. for me, if ive had a bad class b/c of the rowdiness of students, id pretty much try to figure out what happened,who was making trouble, and since i only saw that class once a week...id have a gameplan the next time i saw them.
since its usually the same bad kids over and over...so id single them out and make them the class clown (or clowns)in front of their peers by making them exercise (wall sits, etc) or doing some other tasks. if they get embarrassed doing this, i learned that these students hate being in front of their classmates while being 'shamed'.
if they feed off the attention, i pick up on it, let the class out early, then hold the bad ones. then we go thru the same drill of exercises but only with myself as the audience. i usually keep them from catching their bus...but who cares u waste my time, i waste urs.
and if that doesnt work, ive actually held the bad students hands (while squeezing the shit outta it) almost all the way thru the next session.
point is u gotta find out what does and doesnt work for u.
one of my former co-workers, who i respect a lot, told me that its a test of wills. the student(s) is/are either going to make an adjustment to see ur end of things (or at least to a point where u can tolerate it with no problems) or he/she/they will drop the class. but if u back down, theyll stay the same. |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
8 years teaching in Korea, English single honors BA and TESL certificate, and I still have to teach every new class that I'm a real teacher and I demand the same respect as a Korean teacher gets automatically.
Welcome to ESL Korea. |
not to be snarky.
but not all Korean teachers get the "respect" you speak of.
and your honors BA and tesl and whatever else you'd like to throw in there means NOTHING inside the classroom or frankly in the real world.
they are merely "entrance passes" to get into/thru the door and once inside you have to establish and earn respect on your own (and yes, all over again)
same almost everywhere the world over, and just like "on the street" in the US.
nobody cares about your honors, your special courses, certificated, qualifications.. etc.
it's all about "show me".
and personally I think it's better this way. |
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Scotticus
Joined: 18 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| bogey666 wrote: |
and your honors BA and tesl and whatever else you'd like to throw in there means NOTHING inside the classroom or frankly in the real world.
they are merely "entrance passes" to get into/thru the door and once inside you have to establish and earn respect on your own (and yes, all over again)
same almost everywhere the world over, and just like "on the street" in the US.
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If all you think of your education is that they were "merely entrance passes," then I think that says more about you than the person you're commenting on. Whenever someone makes a comment like that, it "merely" shows they either 1) didn't learn a thing in school or 2) went to such a shitty school that they somehow spent four (or more, if you got other degrees) doing jack shit until they got their degree.
Yes, I'm being snarky. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Re: How much brattyness and insanity is acceptable? |
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| OnTheOtherSide wrote: |
Spitting out the windows. Throwing things. Yelling. Talking loudly while i'm lecturing. Punching. Cussing at me in Korean. Refusing to cooperate at all with anything I say....... |
U must be at a hogwon?
my classes (at a public school) are of 40 kids each. They never get like that. When i'm teaching, the korean co-teacher walks round keeping control. When she's teaching, i patrol them, jabbing and threatening them with a stick. the worst ones have to stand at the front with their hands above their head.
it contains them well enough.
But hogwons? fuggedabadit.
-because there is no support from managment. |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Scotticus wrote: |
| bogey666 wrote: |
and your honors BA and tesl and whatever else you'd like to throw in there means NOTHING inside the classroom or frankly in the real world.
they are merely "entrance passes" to get into/thru the door and once inside you have to establish and earn respect on your own (and yes, all over again)
same almost everywhere the world over, and just like "on the street" in the US.
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If all you think of your education is that they were "merely entrance passes," then I think that says more about you than the person you're commenting on. Whenever someone makes a comment like that, it "merely" shows they either 1) didn't learn a thing in school or 2) went to such a shitty school that they somehow spent four (or more, if you got other degrees) doing jack shit until they got their degree.
Yes, I'm being snarky. |
like it or not, that's how they're basically viewed in "real life".
and I went to a school that is regularly in US/world (top 10), so your second point is particularly amusing.
you may get your first, or even 2nd job on the basis and strength of where you graduated from, etc etc but once on the job, that all means shit... and it's all about "show me".
works the same way in the NFL. You were a college athlete hotshot?
great.... you're drafted... here's some money.
now let's see what you can do.. if it's not enough.... go do something else.
works the same way in the guy's case... he has a job based on his qualifications/certificates. etc.
now he has to "show" what's he got.. to the students too.
nobody other than the people who hired him gives a flying intercourse about his major, his tesl, his experience. or anything else.
now it's "show me time".
and if you or he think his "qualifications" merited a better job.. aka one with better "students" or an environment where his past "accomplishments" were better ahemmm.. "respected".
that's an entirely different discussion.
(p.s. I do recognize the guy's point was that based on his resume he should get the same "respect" from students as the korean teachers.. and that's a valid point, though it can be debated (in my case I get more respect than some of my Kotexes) . as a point of debate though - the Korean teachers are licensed teachers, he is not.) |
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OnTheOtherSide
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: Re: How much brattyness and insanity is acceptable? |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| OnTheOtherSide wrote: |
Spitting out the windows. Throwing things. Yelling. Talking loudly while i'm lecturing. Punching. Cussing at me in Korean. Refusing to cooperate at all with anything I say....... |
U must be at a hogwon?
my classes (at a public school) are of 40 kids each. They never get like that. When i'm teaching, the korean co-teacher walks round keeping control. When she's teaching, i patrol them, jabbing and threatening them with a stick. the worst ones have to stand at the front with their hands above their head.
it contains them well enough.
But hogwons? fuggedabadit.
-because there is no support from managment. |
Exactly, a hagwon.
This morning my friend told me "Ignore the chaos, deal with it as best as you can, get paid and save money." Great idea. Asaaaaaaaaa! Pay up suckas!
And from talking with a bunch of other teachers from Seoul I met this weekend while drunk. It sounds like most hagwans are like this and you just have to accept it to some extent.
Punishment doesn't work at all so i'm gonna try candy rewards. I bought the cheapest possible candy becasue I don't want to spend much of my own money on these kids, but hoefully it'll still work.
I'm also gonna try yelling and verbally assaulting the bad kids into embarrassment, shame and just plain getting sick of my voice. I noticed that when you repeatedly yell a bad kids name out that they start to get uncomfortable and they get sick of the whole scene so they just shut up and get quiet. Maybe that'll work.
Someone else gave me the idea of blowing a really loud whistle, genius. It's these very, very simple things that'll work. All these complex systems of punishment just won't work in these classes. It's gotta be very straight forward.
Thanks for all the tips folks. |
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icicle
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Location: Gyeonggi do Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: |
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OP .... How many students are in your classes? .. That can make a big difference to the best ways to handle discipline in the classroom ...
But in terms of changing your strategy ... If you do decide to switch to the praise the postive ... then don't be afraid to be what might feel a bit like over the top ... and praise everything positive that you recognise ... and at least initially totally ignore (unless it is dangerous) the bad behaviour ... If you can do that ... then it is more likely to turn around the kids attitude ... If you do as you said as in your last post and mix up rewarding positive and punishing/embarrasing the bad ... You will only end up with a similar situation to what you have now .. if not worse ... You need to make the positive (doing the right thing) seem as being something that they want to do for the reward ... as something that they chose to do ...
And while I do know that there is research which would say that using extrinsic motivation like this to get desired behaviour is not as good as encouraging intrinsic motivation (doing it for themselves) ... but in a situation like you are in ... And we are in ... It is difficult in the time we have students to really switch their intrinsic motivation ... but in rewarding the extrinsic behaviour ... we can still make a significant impact on how well they work in class ... and what they learn ...
From my perspective I do tend to take a positive approach ... and am lucky that my hagwon does have a positive reward system that I can work within ... as well as occassional other rewards ... But the truth is at least with my students that rewarding the positive doesn't have to be candy ... A simple "good job" or other positive comment ... even if that is the main thing you end up saying for a lot of the lesson can really encourage them ... I think one thing with "good job" as a comment ... is that most of the students know what it means ... |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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It never ceases to amaze me what some foreign 'teachers' will put up with and even willingly participate in. What do you think the parents would think if they could see there kids in a classroom where students are openly swearing during the lesson? By putting up with that kind of environment you're basically helping your boss defraud parents of their money. What do you think the parents get told about what happens? Probably everything but the truth. Would you work as a sales agent for a company that knowingly sold defective products?
Thank goodness that there's only one hagwon in my town that has a foreign teacher where my students can attend and that the boss there doesn't put up with that kind of shit. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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I think OnTheOtherSide has the right attitude.
On the one hand, he'll try to get his class in line if he can.
OTOH, if it doesn't work out, he won't stress and scream at the kids. *sigh* If only I had that kind of perspective my first month in country. |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Children need structure. Using the "foreign clown" excuse is a cop-out. I spent some time teaching little ones (which is why I now work at a high school!) and the best advice I can give you is to have a set routine. Structure is your friend! It will take time, but it will work. Kids need (and crave) repetition as well. Check out some of the ideas posted on the idea cookbook or just do a search.
In this situation, since the staff/admin are unsupportive of your disciplinary tactics, the only thing you can (well, should) do is to work double-hard on improving your teaching and focus on making your delivery as fun as possible for all involved.
Then look into a public school next year.  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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^ Agree. They want and expect you to take charge.
There are a ton of threads on the subject of classroom discipline already. There was one recently talking about using a storm whistle. Seems like one good idea. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Re: How much brattyness and insanity is acceptable? |
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| OnTheOtherSide wrote: |
Exactly, a hagwon.
This morning my friend told me "Ignore the chaos, deal with it as best as you can, get paid and save money." |
it is possible to get your hogwon classes looking shipshape. But you need a lot of motivation, energy, ideas, and experience. And even then you have to find ways around all the obstacles korean management puts in your way to prevent you doing an effective job.
But most people with such good teaching ability... don't work at hogwons in the first place, or left them quickly for real schools. |
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WoBW
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: HBC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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I didn't read all the posts, so apologies if I repeat what someone else said. I used to get angry at unruly classes and shout at the top of my lungs for them to be quiet. I think the attention that that brings is what they want. Now I just stay calm, no matter how much they piss me off. It seems that not reacting dulls their appetite for bad behaviour.
Don't take any shit from the brats, but don't lose the plot either. Also I find spending a lot of time standing and moving around the room helps. Obviously teachers in PS have to do this anyway because they have big classes in general, but even with small classes in a hagwon it is good to sometimes stand at the back of the room. Sometimes I also sit at an empty desk in the middle of the room so I'm nearer to the brats.
I still have one class that is a pain, though (grade 6 elementary), but their gradually getting better. Their English is a very high level - they just can be sh1ts sometimes. Their latest is throwing paper and pieces of erasers at each other. At least today they started cleaning up the mess without me having to tell them. In fact the room was fucking spotless after class. |
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