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Writer treats an ELF story fairly (for once)
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

. Terrorism by any meaningful definition involves serious crimes ... if not murder, then attempted murder, kidnapping, hostage taking, sexual assault, etc.

You forgot to mention arson. That's also a pretty serious crime, too, and for the life of me I can't imagine why the word popped into my head just now ... oh, now I remember. That's the crime committed by the activists in Washington State, the ones Ted Rall wrote about originally.

Why did you forget to mention arson, Bramble? Not serious enough?

Quote:

BTW, I haven't forgotten about this discussion; I just lost interest in arguing with a person whose idea of a �debate� involves lies, personal attacks and misrepresentation at every step (...)

Now, now, you know darn well I've done none of these things on this thread, and it's been literally years since I called you any sort of prejorative label at all. Time to get over it and move on. Any chance we can do that?

I'll respond to Bramble later (regarding the articles, not the personal insults) when I have time to go over every point carefully.

I think I can pencil in a few moments on my calendar for around the second week in September ...

Laughing

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

destroying inanimate property with no intention of harming living beings.

Read more carefully next time.

Repeating misinformation over and over again doesn't make it true. Responsible people use the word "terrorism" to describe acts of violence that would be war crimes if they occurred in a war. Destruction of inanimate property doesn't meet that standard.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:26 am Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

Responsible people use the word "terrorism" to describe acts of violence that would be war crimes if they occurred in a war. Destruction of inanimate property doesn't meet that standard.

Okay, I can see you are trying to make me laugh, and that's a hopeful sign. Some people have said that you lack any sense of humor at all.

Tell me again. Why do you consider arson not to be a serious crime, and who are these "responsible people" who think it's a valid form of political discourse and civil disobedience? Can you cite a single name of someone other than yourself who feels this way? Because I've doen the work, already, you see - I've looked at the sources you yourself provided and found that the definitions they have of terrorism are pretty much the same as mine: the use of violence to create fear and intimidation in order to acheive political goals. So, please tell me who these 'responsible people " are, because I'd like to meet them.

And another: do you think the people who torched those homes in Washington State were not hoping that the act would make people afraid to build there again? Can you honestly say they were not using coercion and intimidation?

Thing is, though, we can disagree with each other about the definition of the word terrorism. And that's fine. But what I really seem to be getting from you is more than that - that it's okay to engage in violent acts to promote a cause, just because and for no other reason than that the nonviolent methods haven't worked so far.

And that's part I have problems with. Big problems.

Because, you know something? It's not okay.

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject:

I did provide links, months ago, and you went right ahead and ignored the relevant portions and only read the statements you were determined to quote out of context. This is why I dislike talking with you, Bobster ... it's impossible to have a dialogue. It's always a monologue, with you talking over everyone else. Too bad.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

I did provide links, months ago, and you went right ahead and ignored the relevant portions and only read the statements you were determined to quote out of context.

I think I invited you at the time to find the portions of those links that provide the context and promote the understanding of the issue that you want me to hear. I did the work, howver, to read them and find ideas and quotations tghat supported my take on things. You couldn't be bothered, then, to do anything similar, and I'll invite you once more to do so.

Can you give a name of just one person other than yourself that you would consider to be "responsible" and who believes that arson is not a serious crime and does pose a threat to meaningful political discourse by employing fear and intimidation to effect politrical change? Who exactly IS it that thinks that burning down buildings or exploding bombs in laboratories is not a criminal act that can be labeled terrorism?

And spare me, please, your constant asides about why you think I'm a bad person. I haven't insulted you in this thread, and not at all for a long time, and I've even been complimentary towards you on this, yet you continue to paint me as a villain when the fact is that we simply disagree about things.

And nobody really cares if you like me, Bramble, least of all me, because it's completely irrelevant to the issues you brought here to discuss..

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject:

I really can't be bothered pursuing this. As always, you're talking to yourself.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject:

The Bobster:

Quote:

You couldn't be bothered, then, to do anything similar, and I'll invite you once more to do so.

Bramble wrote:

I really can't be bothered pursuing this..

Just one "responsible" person. Just one name. How hard could it be?

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject:

Go back and reread.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

Go back and reread.

Just one name of one "responsible" person who thinks arson is a viable form of political expression in a democratic society.

Pleeeeeeeezzzzze? Pretty please? With sugar and maple syrup and strawberries on top? Please?

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject:

You're talking to yourself again. No one is listening.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

You're talking to yourself again. No one is listening.

Come on. Please?

You said "responsible people" and that means more than one. All I'm asking for is one. Just one. If you do, I'll give you a nice piece of candy with a shiny wrapper. Really!

I know you are an honest person and you wouldn't just make up stuff. That means you DO know one responsible person you could tell me about, right? What's the matter, then?

Last edited by The Bobster on Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject:

You really want the last word in this thread, don't you? Why do you crave attention so much?

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

You really want the last word in this thread, don't you? Why do you crave attention so much?

I thought you weren't listening ... haha! Caughtcha! Razz

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