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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
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| there is no excuse for such behavior on the part of the settlers. |
Actually, the Israelis have the ultimate excuse. God promised them all this land, for ever, in their infallible book. |
Theres a reason israelis don't want palestinians hanging around their villages. They have a habit of bombing and killing them. How would you know the shepherds aren't casually staking the place out in order to kill a few women and children? If they can strap bombs to unknowing disabled people, they can probably strap bombs to wandering goats for pitys sakes.
When the muslims take over your parochial little neighbourhood in Britain I wonder if you'll do anything about it? It'll be funny to see all the english folks extinct in a few decades. Either that, or bowing to Allah 5 mornings a week.
Must be nice to come from such a comfortable little island where there is so little real trouble, that you have to go out and make some from sheer boredom?  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Quote: |
| there is no excuse for such behavior on the part of the settlers. |
Actually, the Israelis have the ultimate excuse. God promised them all this land, for ever, in their infallible book. Can't get a better excuse than that.
From Hitchens' God is not great
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| An Israeli zealot named Dr Baruch Goldstein had come to [a cave in Hebron where Abraham murdered his son to show his love for God - popular tourist attraction for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike] and, unslinging the automatic weapon that he was allowed to carry, discharged it into the Muslim congregation. He killed 27 worshippers and injured countless others before being overwhelmed and beaten to death. It turned out that many people already knew Dr Goldstein was dangerous. While serving as a physician in the Israeli army he had announced that he would not treat non-Jewish patients, such as Israeli Arabs, especially on the Sabbath. As it happens, he was obeying rabbinic law in declining to do this, as many Israeli religious courts have confirmed, so an easy way to spot an inhumane killer was to notice that he was guided by a sincere and literal observance of the divine instruction. Shrines in his name have been set up ever since. |
And they, the theists, say we need God to be moral!  hahaha! |
Yeah. It always seems to be ignored that terrorist attacks have been directed on Palestinian citizens by Israeli citizens. That was one of the most spectacular (and Goldstein is held up as a hero and his actions celebrated by radical religious jews). But they've been going on since the beginning of the occupation. Before the Palestinians themselves became famous for using it. And settlers could pretty much get away with attacks on Palestinians with impunity. From what I've read, 5 years was the prison sentence for killing a Palestinian, and that was only in the unusual case that you were prosecuted. 5 years was the same sentence a Palestinian could expect for raising the Palestinian flag in the occupied territories.
There are regular attacks on Palestinian civilians that don't result in murder, but result in injury, sometimes grevious injury, and certainly cause extreme psychological torture. The IDF are not allowed to intervene, and decent young soldiers often have to look on helplessly as old people are beaten by young settler thugs. Other soldiers have a callous attitude, and make their own contributions to the misery of the ordinary Palestinian. This is regularly witnessed by helpless human rights observers (many of them good Israeli citizens appalled by the occupation) and reported tirelessly by Israeli journalists such as Gideon Levy. His reports never make it to the NYT of course, but can be read regularly in the Israeli newspaper Haraatz. Many of the settlers are religious extremists, with views that mirror Hamas, and are often more extreme than the mainstread Hamas outlook.
Most people have no idea what is going on and what has been going on these last 40 years. Their only reference point seems to be Palestinian violence. In fact, the Palestinians were largely very passive in the first years of the occupation, but were treated worse than dogs. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
there is no excuse for such behavior on the part of the settlers.
Actually, the Israelis have the ultimate excuse. God promised them all this land, for ever, in their infallible book. Can't get a better excuse than that.
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this is exactly what is wrong with Islam.
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[edit] Border conflict, 1949-1956
Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem. The Mixed Armistice on investigation found that the case against Jordanian infiltrators could not be substantiated.
December 31 1951/ Jan 1 1952 a rape murder occurred. The MAC investigating officer, Major Loreaux, reported that the body of the girl had been found hidden in a cave about a mile from the Jordan border, the girl had been raped and murdered her face had been mutilated. Nothing, however, had been found to indicate that Jordanians had committed this atrocity. The case had not been discussed by the Commission. Major Loreaux expressed the opinion that the Israeli police would have a better chance of finding the killer than the Arabs would.[4]
The incident was used as an excuse for the Israeli �reprisal raid� at Beit Jalla on January 6, 1952
Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.
June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in a shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.
June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.
June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.
June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.
Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. No one was hurt.
Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Ma'ale Akrabim (Scorpion Pass) in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The massacre was apparently reprisal raid conducted by members of a Bedouin tribe expelled from the al-Auja region of the Sinai three and a half years earlier.[5][6][7]
Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists attacked and killed 2 hikers in the Judean Desert.
Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.
Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house. Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev. There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.
Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.
Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.
Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.
Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.
Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.
Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.
Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.
[edit] Suez Crisis, October 1956-March 1957
Main article: Suez Crisis
Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.
Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.
Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.
[edit] Border conflict, 1957-1967
Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.
May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.
May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.
June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.
Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.
Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.
Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.
Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in an ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.
Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.
May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.
At 1654 Local time Lieutenant-Colonel Flint of the Mixed Armistice Commission was killed apparently by a single sniper round while trying to evacuate the dead and wounded Israelis from an Israeli police patrol. The Israeli police patrol was on a disputed route past the Issawiya village in the Jordanian controled area of Mount Scopus.[8]
Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attach� in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.
Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.
Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.
Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.
Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.
Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.
Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.
Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.
July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.
Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.
Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.
July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.
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I do believe that there were some violent palestians in the beginning even prior to the occupation. Their society is full of a culture of violence and this is not due only Isreal. I don't mean all palestinians but how can you justify people on tv who claim the Jews came from monkeys??? Even Rashid Khalidi admits that the palestinians have made terrible choices. They could've had their state already. The Arab world has victimized the Palestinians far more that a few dumbass thug settlers with sticks. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Fake? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Why? They've been getting away with it for years/decades. Business as usual. It probably never occurred to them that there would suddenly be hidden cameras on these shabby old Araboushim peasants. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Fake? |
Of course not. We know that there would never be images altered or falsely created to create sympathy for Islam. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Fake? |
Of course not. We know that there would never be images altered or falsely created to create sympathy for Islam. |
Well, even if you prefer to put your head in the sand and not to believe it, attacks on Palestinian civilians are well documented by human rights groups (including Israeli human rights organisations), and are a regular daily occurence in the occupied territories. The settlers are never prosecuted for any of it either. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Why? They've been getting away with it for years/decades. Business as usual. It probably never occurred to them that there would suddenly be hidden cameras on these shabby old Araboushim peasants. |
Seriously. Or that they would care at all either way. As Big Bird noted, settlers have carte blanche. It isn't as if they have serious repercussions. Those settlements are there to stay, and peace will remain elusive.
Israel needs to seriously reform its electoral system and write an actual constitution. Then maybe fringe groups won't suck the country into expensive, costly expenditures such as these settlements. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Quote: |
| there is no excuse for such behavior on the part of the settlers. |
Actually, the Israelis have the ultimate excuse. God promised them all this land, for ever, in their infallible book. Can't get a better excuse than that.
From Hitchens' God is not great
| Quote: |
| An Israeli zealot named Dr Baruch Goldstein had come to [i][a cave in Hebron where Abraham murdered his son to show his love for God - . |
And they, the theists, say we need God to be moral! hahaha! |
One would think that Hitchens would get his theology straight. Abraham never murdered his son. If Hitchens can't even get that right, there's not much hope for the rest of his book. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Why? They've been getting away with it for years/decades. Business as usual. It probably never occurred to them that there would suddenly be hidden cameras on these shabby old Araboushim peasants. |
Seriously. Or that they would care at all either way. As Big Bird noted, settlers have carte blanche. It isn't as if they have serious repercussions. Those settlements are there to stay, and peace will remain elusive.
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Since they cared enough to hide their faces, that theory doesn't hold water. If they didn't expect that there would be cameras why hide their faces at all? If they have "carte blanche" then why even bother?
And this would hold especially true if as BB says they've been getting away with it for decades.
How do you know for a fact that the entire thing wasn't staged in order for support? The beating might have been real, but no evidence has been produced proving they were indeed settlers. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I find it extremely unlikely that if they WERE settlers that they would let a Palestinian film their actions. |
Fake? |
Of course not. We know that there would never be images altered or falsely created to create sympathy for Islam. |
Well, even if you prefer to put your head in the sand and not to believe it, attacks on Palestinian civilians are well documented by human rights groups (including Israeli human rights organisations), and are a regular daily occurence in the occupied territories. The settlers are never prosecuted for any of it either. |
Links to say oh about six such incidents that have settlers attacking Palestinian civilians totally unprovoked?
As you claim it's well docucmented, so you should have no problem finding them..or a OBJECTIVE mainstream site which lists these incidents. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Quote: |
| there is no excuse for such behavior on the part of the settlers. |
Actually, the Israelis have the ultimate excuse. God promised them all this land, for ever, in their infallible book. Can't get a better excuse than that.
From Hitchens' God is not great
| Quote: |
| An Israeli zealot named Dr Baruch Goldstein had come to [i][a cave in Hebron where Abraham murdered his son to show his love for God - . |
And they, the theists, say we need God to be moral! hahaha! |
One would think that Hitchens would get his theology straight. Abraham never murdered his son. If Hitchens can't even get that right, there's not much hope for the rest of his book. |
My mistake (not Hitchens'). Hitchens' words were 'where Abraham had been willing to sacrifice his son'. Thanks for the correction, in any case. I'd forgotten that an angel of God persuaded him otherwise and he killed a nearby ram instead. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist |
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More fakery?
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Mohammed Omer, the Gaza correspondent of IPS, and joint winner of the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism, was strip-searched at gunpoint, assaulted and abused by Israeli security officials at the Allenby border crossing between Jordan and the West Bank on Thursday as he tried to return home to Gaza.
Omer, a resident of Rafah in the south of Gaza, and previous recipient of the New America Media�s Best Youth Voice award several years ago, was returning from London where he had just collected his Gellhorn Prize, and from several European capitals where he had speaking engagements, including a meeting with Greek parliamentarians.
Omer�s trip was sponsored by The Washington Report, and the Dutch embassy in Tel Aviv was responsible for coordinating Omer�s travel plans and his security permit to leave Gaza with Israeli officials.
Israel controls the borders of Gaza and severely restricts the entrance and exit of Gazans allegedly on grounds of security. Human rights organisations accuse the Israelis of using security as a pretext to apply collective punishment indiscriminately.
While waiting in Amman on his way back, Omer eventually received the requisite coordination and security clearance from the Israelis to return to Gaza after this had initially been delayed by several days, he told IPS.
Accompanied by Dutch diplomats, Omer passed through the Jordanian side of the border without incident. However, after arrival on the Israeli side, trouble began. He informed a female soldier that he was returning home to Gaza. He was repeatedly asked where Gaza was, and told that he had neither a permit nor any coordination to cross.
Omer explained that he did indeed have permission and coordination but was nevertheless taken to a room by Israel�s domestic intelligence agency the Shin Bet, where he was isolated for an hour and a half without explanation.
�Eventually I was asked whether I had a knife or gun on me even though I had already passed through the x-ray machine, had my luggage searched, and was in the company of Dutch diplomats,� Omer said.
His luggage was again searched, and security then proceeded to go through every document and paper he had on him, taking down the names and numbers of the European parliamentary officials he had met.
The Shin Bet officials then started to make fun of the European parliamentarians, and mocked Omer for being �the prize-winning journalist�.
The Gazan journalist was repeatedly asked why he was returning to �the hell of Gaza after we allowed you to leave.� To this he responded that he wanted to be a voice for the voiceless. He was told he was a �trouble-maker�.
The security men also demanded he show all the money he had on him, and particular attention was paid to the British pounds he was carrying. His Gellhorn prize money had been awarded in British pounds but he was not carrying the entire sum on him bodily, something the investigators refused to believe.
After being unable to produce the prize money, he was ordered to strip naked.
�At first I refused but then I had an M16 (gun) pointed in my face and my clothes were forcibly removed, even my underwear,� Omer said.
At this point Omer broke down and pleaded for an end to such treatment. He said he was told, �you haven�t seen anything yet.� Every cavity of his body was searched as one of the investigators pinned him down on the floor, placing his boot on Omer�s neck. Omer began vomiting, and fainted.
When he came round his eyelids were being forcibly opened and his eardrums probed by an Israeli military doctor, who was also armed. He was then dragged along the floor by his feet by the Shin Bet officials, with his head repeatedly banging on the floor, to a Palestinian ambulance which had been called.
�I eventually woke up in a Palestinian hospital with the doctors trying to reassure me,� Omer told IPS.
The Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS that Foreign Minister Maxime Zerhagen spoke to the Israeli ambassador to The Netherlands and demanded an explanation.
The Dutch embassy in Tel Aviv has also raised the issue with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, which in turn has promised to investigate the incident and get back to the Dutch officials.
Ahmed Dadou, spokesman from the Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS, �We are taking this whole incident very seriously as we don�t believe the behaviour of the Israeli officials is in accordance with a modern democracy.
�We are further concerned about the mistreatment of an internationally renowned journalist trying to go about his daily business,� added Dadou.
A spokeswoman at the Israeli Foreign Press Association said she was unaware of the incident.
Lisa Dvir from the Israeli Airport Authority (IAA), the body responsible for controlling Israel�s borders, told IPS that the IAA was neither aware of Omer�s journalist credentials nor of his coordination.
�We would like to know who Omer spoke to in regard to receiving coordination to pass through Allenby. We offer journalists a special service when passing through our border crossings, and had we known about his arrival this would not have happened.
�I�m not aware of the events that followed his detention, and we are not responsible for the behaviour of the Shin Bet.�
In the meantime, Omer is still traumatised and in pain. �I�m struggling to breathe and have pain in my head and stomach and will be going back to hospital for further medical examinations,� he said.
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http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43005 |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist |
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Translation of your post: ' I got my ass handed to me, so I'm going to link to a TOTALLY UNRELATED event that nobody even bought up.'
The thread is about settlers attacking a elderly couple in the West Bank.
I see none of those in the link you posted...try again. |
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