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Czarjorge · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Free Will with Omniscient God?

At the bar last night I found myself sitting next to people discussing the greatness of God and I asked them, "Can free will exist in a world with an omniscient God?" They looked at me like I was a nutter and ignored me, but my friends and I got into it and couldn't find an answer.

It seems that the response might be "Yes". Free will and an omniscient God aren't mutually exclusive, just because God knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you don't have the choice of whether or not to do what you choose.

That seems like a good answer, but rings false to me, as it only works if God is non-interventionist. The God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims is an interventionist with some sort of master plan presumably as we are told there's an end point YHWH's working toward.

So, if there is a plan, can there still be free will? Or does free will matter? Yes, you might be able to choose to do what you will freely, but in the greater picture if your choices are countered by God in order to maintain 'the plan' then are your actions not inconsequential?

That awfully close to predetermination isn't it?

peppermint · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

What if God is like the author of a choose your own adventure book( yeah I know it sounds horrible but it's the quickest way to explain it) Assuming there is an omniscient and involved God ( and that's a huge "if"), maybe there's not a set path laid out for each person, just a limited array of paths to choose from.

djsmnc · Joined: 20 Jan 2003 Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

It's just like the government. You're free to do whatever the fk you want, but when all is said and done you'll end up with whatever status the government decides.

mises · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired

blurgalurgalurga · Joined: 18 Oct 2007

To all appearances I have free will. That's enough for me! I have choices to make about what I do next. I choose to not wonder whether I really have a choice.
As for the omniscient God's role in the equation: in my world, there is no god. Perhaps It made me believe that, and made me believe that I made that choice myself. If so...what's the difference? I yam what I yam.
Interesting question and all, and I know there's been loads of geniuses pondering the stuff for centuries, but to me the question of whether we have free will or not seems a rather cumless wank. Likewise the arguments for and against the existence of god and its nature.
Like, I'm going to post this, even though I usually would decide not to, after reading what I'd wrote; did god MAKE me do it like this?
Naaaah.

skconqueror · Joined: 31 Jul 2005

They get around these two somewhat conflicting statements by saying that God doesn't know the eventual outcome (because it leaves Christianity open to the question of how could a loving God create someone destined for hell). Picture it as a spiders web. God knows every situation you will face and the finite repercussions based on all of those events. This is the reason God sent the Holy Spirit to convict you. There is always a chance that "free will" will cause one to accept Jesus.

Omkara · Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Location: USA

This problem is not a real problem.

Our fantasies have led us to create a god with all of the qualities which we wish we had. Some of them are mutually incompatible. All of them are absurd applied to an eternal being.

There is no evidence that, even if there existed a god, it would have any one of the qualities we ascribe to it (including gender).

There is as little evidence that there exists a god.

There is much evidence that people apply a lot of brain power to non-problems and thus create artificial problems.

God is a non-existent entity with much consequence. How does a non-thing cause so much problem?

Perhaps it is wrong to say that god doesn't exist. There exists a group of ideas which are associated under one word:god. That is the reality.

JustJohn · Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Location: Your computer screen

Some people will try to tell you that if God knows what you're going to do then you don't have a choice, but I don't think that's philosophically sound. Knowing the outcome of something is not the same as affecting or deciding the outcome.

In any case, Christians have thought this through for us already and have developed 3 schools of thought:

1. Calvinism
God has decided everything you're going to do. There is no free will. They would say that omniscience negates free will.

2. Arminianism
God is omniscient but you still have free will.

3. Open theism
God does not know the future. Everyone has free will. They would say that God is omniscient but that the future is unknowable.

Omkara · Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Location: USA

Let's make up another god!

This one has free will, doesn't know what she will do next, is spontaneous, speaks in tongues (Consistent with the first two points.)

You attribute!

Thiuda

Otus · Joined: 09 Feb 2006

Kuros · Joined: 27 Apr 2004

JustJohn · Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Location: Your computer screen

Czarjorge · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:

So, yes, in this instance we presuppose an omniscient God.

(All the 'God doesn't exist' business is fairly useless in reference to this thread. Consider it an exercise in thought if you prefer.)

Under that circumstance, can said God have a plan for the eventual outcome of the 'universe' and still be said to have bestowed free will on his/her/its sentient creations?

Does it not negate the idea of free will if the outcome is set?

Can this be easily countered by 'God' being willing to adjust the outcome?

doc_ido · Joined: 03 Sep 2007

As I understand Christianity (I can't really venture any opinion on Judaism or Islam), it can't exist without free will. If God ultimately wants us all worshipping Him (which the Bible would seem to indicate), He could simply have bent our wills to that end.

If someone's going to become a Christian, she has to turn/surrender to God under her own reasoning - if she didn't have free will, then God would know that she only became a Christian because He'd made it so (kind of a hollow victory).