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Bush, One of America's Greatest Presidents?
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Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject:

spliff wrote:

You gotta admit it's true. Bushes war against terrorism has crippled al-Qaida and victory in Iran will seal the deal for their fate. But, not just in Iraq, this administration has benefited humankind throughout the globe. "W" has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't care what the world thinks of him but, what's most important to him, is to not waver from his convictions...gotta respect a guy like that even if you don't like him or what he stands for. It takes guts and I think that will be what he is remembered for. Hats off to GWB!

IMHO, his attack on Iraq was brilliant. No one else would have even considered it.

No one else would have considered because it was the wrong country and Osama Bin Ladin is still free today because of that (and countless other incompent-related reasons).

It also is completely destroying America financially. There are multitudes upon multitudes of reasons why no one else would have ever considered something so dumb, ignorant, unplanned, and uninformed.

Bush's entire administration/legacy to me, is basically playing into Al Quaida's hands. By attacking the wrong country, incompetent in finding Bin Ladin, bankrupting the U.S. by an incompetent poorly-run war, and squandering ungodly amounts of money on a spread out military that creates more American hatred than love for America. If someone wanted to destroy America in every conceivable way, then Bush is the ideal dummy to be the man for the job. Any other President would have been clever enough to see the quagmire well beforehand, and would have handled it correctly a long time ago.

Also creating other massive large government beaucratic machines that are equally ineffective, FEMA's dealing with New Orleans, will go into the history books of even massive homeland incompetencies to match the incompetent stuff abroad.

TexasPete

Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: Koreatown

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject:

Ah, some tripe from Ann "Joseph McCarthy is my hero" Coulter. Can anyone take she of the Adam's apple seriously anymore?

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject:

TexasPete wrote:

Ah, some tripe from Ann "Joseph McCarthy is my hero" Coulter. Can anyone take she of the Adam's apple seriously anymore?

No but how can you explain why the US wasn't attacked?

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject:

Quote:

No but how can you explain why the US wasn't attacked?

Except for the earlier failed attempt on the WTC, can you name another successful attack on the US (inside) by this group in the 200 years before 9/11?

I'd say they just got lucky.

TexasPete

Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: Koreatown

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

TexasPete wrote:

Ah, some tripe from Ann "Joseph McCarthy is my hero" Coulter. Can anyone take she of the Adam's apple seriously anymore?

No but how can you explain why the US wasn't attacked?

I imagine it has something to do with the fact that Bush and company like to use our Constitution to wipe their ass with. You know, that document they swear to protect, uphold and defend to the best of their abilities so help them god when they take the oath of office.

To paraphrase Franklin, those who sacrifice a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and get none. We are a nation of laws and if the laws have no meaning to those in power or are treated as mere inconveniences then we are at risk from the very tyranny and despotism our Founding Fathers sacrificed so much for in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

There's a good reason we have such an elaborate system of checks and balances in place--to prevent those in power from doing whatever the hell they want. Our nation was founded on the principles of liberty and law--that no man should be above or beyond the law and that laws passed must also protect the natural liberties and rights outlined in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

The Bush administration has done more to harm the Constitution, the system of checks and balances and an independent judiciary dedicated to making sure politicians don't overstep their bounds than perhaps any other administration in history. From warrant-less (and illegal) wire tapping, to using federal judges as a political arm of the Republican Party, to starting a war based on willful ignorance at best (outright lies at worst), to creating the largest deficit and national debt in our history, it's my opinion that the Bush administration has made us less safe, less free and less secure. The Democrats certainly aren't helping matters much, but they at least are not the instigators in what i consider a travesty of the political process.

Buildings can be rebuilt though the lives lost on September 11th can never be and losing more American lives (not to mention 100s of thousands of Iraqis) in pursuit of an objective that had nothing whatsoever to do with September 11th is a travesty and an insult to those victim's memories. While the distraction in Iraq continues, Bin Laden and the real perpetrators of the attacks continue to remain free albeit in caves or tribal backwater regions of Central Asia. We hadn't even totally secured Afghanistan before we were polishing our bombs for Baghdad and to this day, the Taleban and Al Qaida remains a force to be reckoned with in that region. We let Bin Laden get away at Tora Bora and Bush himself disbanded the office in charge of seeking Bin Laden out even later.

Invading Afghanistan was justified all things considered, but invading Iraq only served to be the biggest recruiting poster Al Qaida could ever have dreamed of. American troops occupying a huge chunk of the Middle East only serves to reinforce the to-that-point falsely propagandized perception created by Al Qaida that we were a threat to Islam and therefor Muslims everywhere. If anything, i'd say Bush's poorly planned and deceitful invasion of Iraq inspired more crazy assholes to strap bombs to themselves and destroy more innocent lives.

History may prove me wrong as the Republicans and Bush are desperately hoping for. But i sincerely doubt that. And that's the way i see it in my opinion.

blaseblasphemener

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Bush, One of America's Greatest Presidents?

[quote="Kepler"]

Quote:

BUSH'S AMERICA: 100 PERCENT AL-QAIDA FREE SINCE 2001Wed Jun 11, 7:58 PM ET

In a conversation recently, I mentioned as an aside what a great president George Bush has been and my friend was surprised. I was surprised that he was surprised.

She made up this story. Ann Coulter has no friends.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

No but how can you explain why the US wasn't attacked?

Except for the earlier failed attempt on the WTC, can you name another successful attack on the US (inside) by this group in the 200 years before 9/11?

I'd say they just got lucky.

There were several Al Qaeda type attacks in the US before 9-11 and several attempts as well.

1993 WTC bombing

The assassination of a CIA officer

The attempted attacks on the NYC transit system.

There are I think two or three others.

Since then zero.

I can't prove it is cause of the policies of Bush but I don't think it is outrageous to say maybe the polices of Bush have something to do with it.

Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 am Post subject:

TexasPete, GREAT RESPONSE and DEAD-ON CORRECT.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:48 am Post subject:

[quote="TexasPete"][

Quote:

Well protecting the US is a success not a failure . Forgive me for seeing it that way. If the US system wasn't up to protecting the US then the US system isn't good enough.

Americans have a right to be safe too more than anything else.

Quote:

To paraphrase Franklin, those who sacrifice a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and get none. We are a nation of laws and if the laws have no meaning to those in power or are treated as mere inconveniences then we are at risk from the very tyranny and despotism our Founding Fathers sacrificed so much for in pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

Well the first obligation is to protect US citizens.

The US is still one of the most free and tolerant nations around.

The US did bad stuff in other wars and had harsh laws in other wars , but no one cared or no one said anything.

One more thing , it is justice to prevent Al Qaeda attacks.

Quote:

There's a good reason we have such an elaborate system of checks and balances in place--to prevent those in power from doing whatever the hell they want. Our nation was founded on the principles of liberty and law--that no man should be above or beyond the law and that laws passed must also protect the natural liberties and rights outlined in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

And my answer right above goes.

[quote]

Quote:

The Bush administration has done more to harm the Constitution, the system of checks and balances and an independent judiciary dedicated to making sure politicians don't overstep their bounds than perhaps any other administration in history

.

I don't know about this.

Quote:

From warrant-less (and illegal) wire tapping,

It wasn't illegal and it protected US citizens. and it involved overseas phone calls.

Quote:

to using federal judges as a political arm of the Republican Party,

No comment

Quote:

to starting a war based on willful ignorance at best (outright lies at worst),

Maybe true .

At the same time Saddam never gave up his war . True

The mideast as it was before the Iraq war was a threat to the US. Also true.

Quote:

to creating the largest deficit and national debt in our history,

The deficit.

I didn't support Bush's tax cuts

On the other hand

The recession of 2000-2002 started before Bush came to office = less tax revenue

The stock market melt down started before Bush came to office = less tax revenue

9-11 was planned before Bush came to office = damage to the US economy

That China and India use more oil can't be blamed on Bush. = damage to the US economy

All of the above has had an effect on the US economy and tax revenue.

Anyone wanna say otherwise?

Anyway as a % GDP the budget deficit is not anywhere near the largest in US history.

Even with the Iraq war the US military budget is what it was in the 1980s.

the US economy can handle the national debt what the US can not handle however are the entitlements.

But you can't blame them on Bush . You can't blame the Social security deficit on Bush.

Is there anything here that is not accurate?

Quote:

it's my opinion that the Bush administration has made us less safe, less free and less secure.

How is Al Qaeda doing?

Quote:

The Democrats certainly aren't helping matters much, but they at least are not the instigators in what i consider a travesty of the political process

You are welcome to your opinion

Quote:

Buildings can be rebuilt

So what Al Qaeda's war on the US is not acceptable and it must end all of it.

Quote:

though the lives lost on September 11th can never be and losing more American lives

9-11 was planned before Bush came to office.

Quote:

(not to mention 100s of thousands of Iraqis)

You don't think taking down Saddam saved lives? Those lives count.

Remember Saddam was a greater killer than Idi Amin and had he gone free he would have done more of the same.

And you ought not charge the US for insurgents killed or those the insurgents kill.

Quote:

in pursuit of an objective that had nothing whatsoever to do with September 11th

It did indirctly . Besides Saddam was an enemy who never gave up his war.

Quote:

is a travesty and an insult to those victim's memories.

Well this is how it works if mideast regimes and elites don't teach hate and don't incite violence and don't allow terrorists to operate then there will be less terror . Don't you agree?

Quote:

While the distraction in Iraq continues,

See the answer above.

Quote:

Bin Laden and the real perpetrators of the attacks continue to remain free albeit in caves or tribal backwater regions of Central Asia.

Something needs to be done but what makes you think the Democrats would have gotten him? No guarantee they would have.

Clinton couldn't get Bin Laden either.

Quote:

We hadn't even totally secured Afghanistan before we were polishing our bombs for Baghdad and to this day, the Taleban and Al Qaida remains a force to be reckoned with in that region. We let Bin Laden get away at Tora Bora and Bush himself disbanded the office in charge of seeking Bin Laden out even later.

How long has been Bin Laden after the US.

Quote:

Invading Afghanistan was justified all things considered,

only justified?

Quote:

invading Iraq only served to be the biggest recruiting poster Al Qaida could ever have dreamed of.

What was it like before the US invaded Iraq?

Quote:

Al-Qaeda camps 'trained 70,000'

Thousands are said to have joined al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan
Some 70,000 people received weapons training and religious instruction in al-Qaeda camps, German police say.
The claim came at the retrial of Mounir al-Motassadek, a Moroccan man accused of involvement in the 9/11 attacks, which were partly planned in Germany.

A German police officer told the court recruits at the camps were taught they had a duty to kill US citizens.

Mr Motassadek says he received training in Afghanistan and knew some of the 9/11 hijackers - but not of their plot.

Although initially convicted of involvement in the attacks, he is now facing a retrial.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4146969.stm

Quote:

American troops occupying a huge chunk of the Middle East only serves to reinforce the to-that-point falsely propagandized perception created by Al Qaida that we were a threat to Islam and therefor Muslims everywhere.

What was it like before 9-11.

Here is the solution to terror . Get mideast states to violate the human rights of those who support Al Qaeda or Hizzbollah. Get them to lop their heads off. cut their throat or bury them alive. Mideast governments are good at that sort of thing no? Why don't they do that.

A big army in the mideast is a threat to every mideast govt. The US won't do anyting to anyone who kills the terrorists.

Quote:

If anything, i'd say Bush's poorly planned and deceitful invasion of Iraq inspired more crazy assholes to strap bombs to themselves and destroy more innocent lives.

maybe , on the other hand since mideast states are all police states they can get rid of the terrorists if they fell they have to.

Quote:

History may prove me wrong as the Republicans and Bush are desperately hoping for. But i sincerely doubt that. And that's the way i see it in my opinion.

thanks for your opinion.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:54 am Post subject:

Tiger Beer wrote:

TexasPete,

GREAT RESPONSE and DEAD-ON CORRECT.

I hope you took the time to read my answer.

agentX

Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:05 am Post subject:

spliff wrote:

YIMHO, his attack on Iraq was brilliant. No one else would have even considered it.

Brilliant, huh? What was that quote about geniuses?

Quote:

Evil always turns up in this world through some genius or other.

NO WMDs, no ties to 9/11, no yellowcake from Niger, 4000 US soldiers dead, possibly 1 million Iraqis dead, billions lost to an insurgency and corruption that should never have occurred. This war plan was about as bright as a 20 watt light bulb.

Or maybe that was the plan all along; turn Iraq into a war zone so the war profiteers could make billions, the oil companies can take over the oil fields without major concession to the government, and provide a launching point to take over Iran's oil fields. If that's what you mean by brilliant, then;
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/20060627-bush%2520mission%2520accomplished.jpg
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/Gutierrez.jpg
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~glushko/WhatBushAccomplished.gif http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/1a8c209e-4c9d-48d1-bbd1-e7d99c30406f_ms.jpg

TexasPete

Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: Koreatown

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:25 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Quote:

If, as you suggest, the US system is faulty or negligent in its ability to protect US citizens, then there is a system in place whereas change can be facilitated. We can pass laws and if the laws are deemed unconstitutional, then the government can push for an Amendment to the Constitution though that is a quite difficult process. You don't just ignore the law or the Constitution because it's inconvenient. That's what tyrants do.

Quote:

Simply because information wasn't as widely known then as it is today or that people cared less about the gross injustices done during previous wars does not make those instances any less wrong.

Justice is a process in our country. It's not willy nilly or Dirty Harry. The Nazis got due process and whatever Al Qaida has done (and make no mistake my utter loathing for that organization) they still deserve due process so that there can be no mistake or controversy arising over their indictments for their actions.

Quote:

The recession of 2000-2002 started before Bush came to office = less tax revenue

The stock market melt down started before Bush came to office = less tax revenue

9-11 was planned before Bush came to office = damage to the US economy

No argument there.

Quote:

That China and India use more oil can't be blamed on Bush. = damage to the US economy

Well, the situation is a bit more complex than that though it certainly is a contributing factor.

Frankly i don't quite understand international finance enough to argue the point people have been making about speculators and loopholes that have been recommended for change, but many people with far more credentials than i could amass are making the argument.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004456284_oil04.html

Additionally, the increased instability in the Mid-East (never too terribly stable to begin with) post-Iraq, has created greater market pressures which have driven up the price of oil by as much as 3 times.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-future-price-of-oil-pick-a-number/2008/06/20/1213770924692.html

I won't put all of the blame on Bush for crazy oil prices, but i say he bears much of the burden and certainly his policies don't help much either. Especially when one considers that the new buzz word of the Republicans, "off-shore drilling" is only a temporary solution at best and won't even yield results for 10 or more years.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/22/meet-the-press-graham-flip-flops-on-off-shore-drilling-biden-youre-entitled-to-your-own-opinion-not-your-own-facts/
So, no help there.

Quote:

Anyway as a % GDP the budget deficit is not anywhere near the largest in US history.

[img]http://z.about.com/d/uspolitics/1/7/n/G/095.png[/img]
Allright, you got me there.
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/thefederalbudget/ig/Political-Economic-Measures/Debt-as-a-Percent-of-GDP--1940.htm
Though in terms of national debt, we've never had more and that can't be good.
http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html

Quote:

I don't know if taking Sadaam down did save lives or not, but it seems to me that there wouldn't be a mass diaspora of the most able bodied and educated Iraq had to offer (and it is debatable that none of those people COULD have left under Sadaam). I also doubt Sadaam's regime would have offed the hundreds of thousands of dead that McCain himself admits have died since the invasion.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/04/02/mccain-admits-hundreds-of-thousands-iraqi-deaths/

I'm also not charging that the US troops are responsible for the insurgency but the piss poor post invasion plan and scores of missed opportunities post "Mission Accomplished" most certainly helped creat the environment of sheer chaos on which the insurgency thrives. I think that given proper planning and having the right people making the right decisions in key places, the Iraqi war could have been a helluva lot more successful to date than it has been. But once again Bush let cronyism dictate many of his key appointments to the post-war rebuilding effort. Outlined in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Vintage/dp/0307278832/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214217702&sr=1-1
review found here:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/26/cl-book-review-imperial-life-in-emerald-city/#more-15629

Quote:

There is the eager 24 year old with no finance experience who is put in charge of restoring and modernizing Iraq's aged but functional stock market.

We meet John Agresto, a 58 year old pipe-smoking bureaucrat who takes on the daunting task of restoring the higher education system of Iraq which encompassed 22 campuses and nearly a half million students.

Agresto has no background in post-conflict resolution and no experience in the Middle East. The school he ran, St John's College in Santa Fe, New Mexico had fewer than 500 students.

How could he be so qualified for such a daunting task? Surely there are others.

Ah, it seems a certain wife of Donald Rumsfeld was on that school board and a Mrs. Dick Cheney had worked with him at NEH.

So he came socially pre-vetted.

Agresto runs into blockade after blockade. Losing complete faith in the White House he decides to head for home. "I'm a neoconservative who's been mugged by reality," he mumbles as he cuts and runs.

Quote:

Well this is how it works if mideast regimes and elites don't teach hate and don't incite violence and don't allow terrorists to operate then there will be less terror . Don't you agree?

Doesn't it seem well...counterintuitive to tell people to stop preaching violence or we'll bomb the ever living daylights out of you?

Quote:

Something needs to be done but what makes you think the Democrats would have gotten him? No guarantee they would have.

Clinton couldn't get Bin Laden either.

Bush has had nearly 7 years and still hasn't gotten him. There's the old saying that if something isn't broke, don't fix it yet the converse is true as well. Something very clearly is broke if with all the resources the US can bring to the table, they still can't find this asshat. I don't know if the Dems can find him or not, but as far as i'm concerned the Republicans have had their chance and failed to date thus far. At this point i don't think it could possibly hurt to have a different perspective on the hunt.

Quote:

only justified?

Not only justified. Necessary. Should have clarified that point.

Quote:

Quote:
American troops occupying a huge chunk of the Middle East only serves to reinforce the to-that-point falsely propagandized perception created by Al Qaida that we were a threat to Islam and therefor Muslims everywhere.

What was it like before 9-11.

Here is the solution to terror . Get mideast states to violate the human rights of those who support Al Qaeda or Hizzbollah. Get them to lop their heads off. cut their throat or bury them alive. Mideast governments are good at that sort of thing no? Why don't they do that.

A big army in the mideast is a threat to every mideast govt. The US won't do anyting to anyone who kills the terrorists.

My point here was that pre-invasion, all the propoganda and hate Al Qaida directed our way was more or less abstract. Bin Laden and his ilk could preach and preach and preach all they wanted to uneducated masses about the evils of America and how their very lives were threatened by mere presence of America in the world. But there was nothing concrete to point to and say, "Aha! There are the American dogs raping our women and bombing our villages!"

Now, we're in Iraq and shit like Abu Ghraib went down, compounded with indefinite detention at Guantanamo with recent congressional testimony attributing 25 outright murders of detainees held in US detention of over 100 who died while in custody.
http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/11895
Now i don't expect the uneducated masses who make up the canon fodder for Al Qaida to really understand or appreciate or even know all of the subtle nuances or information that the average Westerner can find online, but they can sure as shit understand "shock and awe" and i guarantee you it doesn't tickle their fancy.

Even more to the point: Violence begets violence and your solution of condoning or outright encouraging totalitarian regimes to lop off heads, cut throats and bury the living is barbaric, seriously damaging to our international credibility and completely contrary to the so-called "Bush Doctrine" of spreading democracy in the Middle East. Not to mention akin to the policies of Hussein who you're so glad we've got rid of. Furthermore, it only serves to create more and more "martyrs" which only lends credibility to the terrorist philosophy.

This has gotten long enough so i'll end it here. Again, this is my opinion on the matter.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:49 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

There were several Al Qaeda type attacks in the US before 9-11 and several attempts as well.

1993 WTC bombing

That was an inside job a well.

Egyptian cop Emad Salim was on the CIA payroll infiltrating the group that was planning the attack. The agency provided him with all the explosives and know-how which he gave in turn to the conspirators.

Just before the attack was to take place, his CIA handler called him to say that ther was going to be a change in how he was paid. Instead of receiving $500/week salary, he was now going to be paid piecemeal for his info. Salim wasn't having it. He told his handler that all the pieces were in place for the attack but the handler had his orders, and he let him go.

Of course, after the attack, the FBI spent one and a half million dollars on the investigation to bring the culprits to justice, and sought the limelight after they "solved" the case when the reality is that they had screwed up royally.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:00 am Post subject:

... Last edited by bacasper on Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:19 am Post subject:

[quote="TexasPete"]Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Quote:

Changing the constitution takes time there was a war going on

Quote:

Simply because information wasn't as widely known then as it is today or that people cared less about the gross injustices done during previous wars does not make those instances any less wrong.

mostly agree

Quote:

Justice is a process in our country. It's not willy nilly or Dirty Harry. The Nazis got due process and whatever Al Qaida has done (and make no mistake my utter loathing for that organization) they still deserve due process so that there can be no mistake or controversy arising over their indictments for their actions.

I can see why you feel that way. at the same time it was the opinion of the Clinton adminstation that Bin Laden could not be convicted in a US court.

Additionally, the increased instability in the Mid-East (never too terribly stable to begin with) post-Iraq, has created greater market pressures which have driven up the price of oil by as much as 3 times.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-future-price-of-oil-pick-a-number/2008/06/20/1213770924692.html

Quote:

I won't put all of the blame on Bush for crazy oil prices, but i say he bears much of the burden and certainly his policies don't help much either. Especially when one considers that the new buzz word of the Republicans, "off-shore drilling" is only a temporary solution at best and won't even yield results for 10 or more years.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/22/meet-the-press-graham-flip-flops-on-off-shore-drilling-biden-youre-entitled-to-your-own-opinion-not-your-own-facts/

having more oil would cut into speculators that is one way at least the off shore drilling could help.

A temporary soluation isn't so bad that way technology has more time to come in.
So, no help there.

but the budget defict as a % of GDP is what is important.

Quote:

Well Saddam intended to kill of the kurds , kill the Shias invade Kuwait and eventually have a nuclear war against Israel . In that order.

No argument on the US messed up doing the invasion.

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Doesn't it seem well...counterintuitive to tell people to stop preaching violence or we'll bomb the ever living daylights out of you?

but that is the way things work in the mideast.

Quote:

That is all true it is also true that mideast regimes are very good at controling what goes on in their nations. They can get Al Qaeda if they choose to.

Quote:

Even more to the point: Violence begets violence and your solution of condoning or outright encouraging totalitarian regimes to lop off heads, cut throats and bury the living is barbaric, seriously damaging to our international credibility and completely contrary to the so-called "Bush Doctrine" of spreading democracy in the Middle East. Not to mention akin to the policies of Hussein who you're so glad we've got rid of. Furthermore, it only serves to create more and more "martyrs" which only lends credibility to the terrorist philosophy.

It depends . Mideast regimes can get rid of AQ if they choose to. the reason for terror or one of the main reasons for terror is that mideast regimes and elties incite it. That needs to change.

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