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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Obama Braces For Race-based Ads |
Poor, noble Obama. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I can create a bibliography of at least one hundred articles and books [...] What can you produce from your monolithic Republican attack machine? A single Texan who made twelve buttons and sold four before the Texas Republicans booted him from their convention? |
The Bobster:
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< 8 links to sources describing Republicans using race to win elections. >
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We are still waiting to see what you can produce ... Nothing better than a superior attitude and a sneer? Lotta talk and bragaddocio, seems to me, and not much more.
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| Poor, noble Obama. |
Do you defend the ad descibed in the link, the one that is cynically using the hate and fear of muslims - to, basically, lie? Or will you pretend that such things don't exist, despite the evidence you are shown? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
Can Obama be accused of playing the race card merely because he's not white? Do we take it as the elephant in the room and decide its there so its valid to discuss?
It seems the answer to both questions is yes. It certainly was for Clinton, and I think its worth mentioning she was the first person to bring it up. In fact she played both the gender and the race cards first. Obama responded, and won the argument, that's why he's here now. Once they're on the table you respond, you work around or with them, or you lose. People try to lay on the idealist or pragmatist or realist political labels, but aren't all presidential candidates a mix of those things?
I can't remember the origin of the quote, but someone said something to the effect of, "I wouldn't vote for anyone who would campaign for the office of President, and I wouldn't for anyone unwilling to campaign for the office of President." Like Gopher said, power corrupts, in Obama's case the question is: how much? I still 'hope' he won't be another Bill Clinton.
But the idea that calling the Reps out on the likelihood that they'll play the race card is somehow inappropriate is ridiculous. As much as you might want to defend the Grand Old Party you are denying the undeniable if you think they won't. The Republicans have a history of using race, as well as any wedge issue available, to their advantage.
Here's a list of links to pages about how the GOP has gone out of its way to disenfranchise voters, many of them in reference to minorities...
http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Voter%20Disenfranchisement
I looked around but couldn't find a link online to stories of disenfranchisement in black areas in 2000. The worst being the use of flyers advertising November 8th as election day or directing people in a neighborhood to the wrong polling place.
Do you really think that the Reps, who will use the race card against each other (re: McCain's illegitimate black 'daughter' in 2000), wouldn't try to 'swift boat' (I love that 'swift boating' is a verb now.) Obama with it?
Which is exactly why David Brooks' criticisms are ridiculous. How does Obama taking private money, the vast majority of which has been small amounts from individual donors which is pretty damn public to me, mean that he's dealt a 'death blow' to campaign finance? Obama may be more of a political opportunist than he seems, but I always figured that was the case. He's still the better option. |
No one can say it came from small donors.
It could have been from big donors many many times. Not every donation is reported to the FEC. A 20 dollar donation will not be.
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BARACK OBAMA
91 Percent of Obama Donors Not Required to Be Reported to FEC
A fairly glaring whopper from Obama, mentioned in this op-ed by economics professor Jay Mandle in the Washington Post:
During a Feb. 26 debate in Cleveland, for example, Obama said that "we have now raised 90 percent of our donations from small donors, $25, $50." His campaign's own data from January 2007 through January 2008 show that 36 percent of donated funds were from small donors. Obama probably meant that 90 percent of the individuals who contributed were small donors, but the number of donors has not been verified.
While the portion of his money raised from small donors probably increased from 36 percent by the time Obama made the statement in the debate, there's no way it changed from 36 to 90 percent in twenty-six days. |
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Mandle's op-ed notes "Contributions of less than $200 do not have to be itemized in reports to the Federal Election Commission, so we have no idea how many are made."
The FEC asks campaigns to report any donor whose cumulative contributions have exceeded $200. Is that occurring on the Obama campaign? (If so, no wonder the campaign has 700 paid employees. Imagine keeping track of John Smith donating $20 in January, $30 in February, only $15 in March, etc., times 2.7 million. Yes, you read that correctly. According to the Obama campaign, 91 percent � roughly 2.7 million � of their 3 million donors have given less than $100. Presuming that is accurate, right now, they are only obligated to report information to the FEC on 9 percent of their donors!)
If the campaign isn't able to keep up, and donors don't have to report a donation of less than $200 to the FEC, what is to stop someone from working around the $2,300 per candidate per race limit by donating, say, $19,900 in a hundred donations of $199? |
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/
I would not be surprised if the Obama campaign was getting money from left wing Europeans in violation of US election laws. In fact I am almost sure it is occurring. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| We are still waiting to see what you can produce... |
And I am still waiting to hear you ask me. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'll ask a question.
Do you think Obama is wrong when he claims that opponents will use race as a tool against him? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I wish Obama would not contribute to this divisiveness for political gain. Two things: I respect realist politics and I do not fault him for seizing every opportunity he can to win the election. Indeed, I respect it. But I also know that Obama sees exactly what I see re: what he has called "slice and dice politics." And, again, I wish he would not contribute to it.
And I truly wish Obama's supporters would stop taking his election-year propaganda at face-value and running with it...They strike me as just about the same as Ron Paul's supporters on that tendency. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
I'll ask a question.
Do you think Obama is wrong when he claims that opponents will use race as a tool against him? |
His opponent, John McCain? No, John McCain will not use race against Obama.
Will Obama shed all his 'ideals' before winning the election? No, but I think he'll violate just about every one of his core principles at least once. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
I'll ask a question.
Do you think Obama is wrong when he claims that opponents will use race as a tool against him? |
His opponent, John McCain? |
No, his opponents on the racist conservative fringe. I know that John McCain will speak out against the racism that comes from them. If you're going to answer the question, at least be reasonable in understanding it.
So, Gopher...
Is that a "Yes" or a "No?" |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
I'll ask a question.
Do you think Obama is wrong when he claims that opponents will use race as a tool against him? |
His opponent, John McCain? |
No, his opponents on the racist conservative fringe. I know that John McCain will speak out against the racism that comes from them. If you're going to answer the question, at least be reasonable in understanding it.
So, Gopher...
Is that a "Yes" or a "No?" |
I don't think the fringe has to attack Obama on race. They'll attack him on the fact that he's an outsider. Part of what Obama was trying to do was to reveal the racist code. He was trying to associate attacks on his patriotism and his cosmopolitanism as racist. I think for some it is code for racism, but you cannot say that for all who believe that.
At any rate, for about 40% of the country, the fact that Obama is a Democrat inspires enough loathing already. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is a simple "Yes" or "No" question!
Do you think Barack Obama's opponents (people who oppose him being the next president) will use racism as a tool against him? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
This is a simple "Yes" or "No" question!
Do you think Barack Obama's opponents (people who oppose him being the next president) will use racism as a tool against him? |
Yes, someone who can be loosely defined as Barack Obama's opponents with the wonderful clarifier 'they' will use racism against him. And it will be so incredibly tactless and unnecessary that people will marvel at the stupidity. I mean, if people already are queasy about Obama's race, does it really need to be pointed out?
| Most non-observant racist ever wrote: |
| You mean Barack is black? REALLY? Oh, and I was going to vote for him! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I note your use of the future tense, Pligganease. Do you possess a crystal ball? I also note Bobster's reference to Nixon's Southern Strategy Are Republicans using the race card this election or are they not? And what do you have to say about my links to Clinton, Ferraro, and Obama's playing the race card this election?
What do you have besides four buttons and a guy thrown out of a Republican convention in Texas?
| Pligganease wrote: |
| This is a simple "Yes" or "No" question! |
No, it is a power play. Robert S. McNamara says someone once advised him to answer the questions as he wishes they had been formed rather than as those who hurled that at him formed them. I retired judge I once new told me the same thing, phrased along the lines of not having to play the prosecutors' game -- so why should we? And I have always found that wise advice.
In any case, how about this answer: I wish Republicans or, underneath them, your ubiquitous "they," would not play the race card, and if they did in fact do so, I would disapprove of it. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, my friend, do you think they will use race against him?
I hope not, but I feel confident that they will, especially in Southern and more rural areas where they can count of the poorer and less educated people to jump on it.
No crystal ball, but I want to know if you think they will use race against him.
Will they, in your opinion? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| You're assuming falsely that the Right-wing is rational. they're not. |
We aren't talking about the right wing, at least not in its entirety.
We're talking about a far less-than-mainstream fringe. Don't blanket the entire right wing with the labels of racist or irrational. In many cases, they are far more rational than left-wingers. |
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