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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I would not be surprised if the Obama campaign was getting money from left wing Europeans in violation of US election laws. In fact I am almost sure it is occurring. |
That's a serious charge. Do you have anything to back that up? Otherwise it's rumors, supposition and innuendo.
Always cracks me up to see conservatives complaining that somebody else is getting too much money. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| You're assuming falsely that the Right-wing is rational... |
This conversation has nothing to do with "the right-wing's" rationality or lack thereof. It has everything do with who exactly is playing the race card in the election right now. It is a discussion pertaining to today's facts and should not drift into allegations that belong to past elections and hypotheticals and speculation about the future.
So Pligganease: I do not know what will happen between now and November. And neither do you. This, taken with my posts above, are about as clear an answer as I can offer.
It almost sounds as if you and others here will be disappointed, you might even lose your boogeyman, if "they" do not in fact do what you seem to believe -- dare I say, hope and even need -- they will. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, Goph...
I'll phrase it another way.
I bet you $100 dollars that several groups print and distribute media clearly pointing out Obama's race and ethnicity in an attempt to play on racist fears and motivate racist voters to go to the polls.
Do you take that bet? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Be specific and I will. So far you have dismissed John McCain and the Republican leadership and focused on "they" and now "several groups."
Identify them as best you reasonably can, narrow your timeframe to a specific timeframe, and based on that, if I can, if it directly ties to McCain's campaign, for example, I will take your bet. And let us make it $1000. We can exchange routing and acct nos. via pm.
I remain very confident that McCain and every other intelligent Republican clearly sees the danger in playing the race card in this election and will almost certainly completely avoid it through Novemeber.
One other thing: if you are asking me to bet whether some elements within American society (e.g., Bobster's Neo-Nazis and skinheads) remain racist and will attack Barack Obama's candidacy on those grounds, I will not take that bet. That would be a ridiculous bet.
I remain interested in McCain's campaign and the Republican Party, national, state, and local. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Have no doubts that I am 100% confident that the Republican leadership, including John McCain and his staff, will have nothing to do with any racist messages sent forth during this campaign. I also have no doubts that John McCain, being from a largely Latino state and serving in Vietnam with countless people of color, is not at all racist.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the "swift boat" crowd. I'm thinking of the Rovian operatives and small, non-affiliated groups that do the dirty work and ensure deniability for the leadership.
That's the they I am referring to. I also think it's implied in Obama's message that it is the same they to which he was referring.
Regardless, the opponents of the Democratic nominee tend to be Republicans. If Republicans invest time and money in order to get a message out, they are part of the campaign. If they use race as a tactic against Obama, it's part of the Republican campaign. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| I'm thinking more along the lines of the "swift boat" crowd. I'm thinking of the Rovian operatives and small, non-affiliated groups that do the dirty work and ensure deniability for the leadership. |
I cannot take this bet, then. It would represent a bad wager. You will likely attribute any racist attack on Barack Obama to "them." We will not at all be able to verify or prove it, as you admit here. But you will attribute it to them nonetheless. How could we decide who won such a bet?
And this...
| Pligganease wrote: |
| the opponents of the Democratic nominee tend to be Republicans. |
seems a bit too black and white to me. Where do you place, for example, Geraldine Ferraro and her supporters? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Regardless, the opponents of the Democratic nominee tend to be Republicans. |
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If they use race as a tactic against Obama, it's part of the Republican campaign. |
That isn't a very tight argument.
Anyways, there may be individuals who are merely anti-Obama or naked racists that aren't Repubs or are loosely Repubs, that might throw some money towards using race as an issue. I doubt the stormfront crowd are all that happy with Bush or McCain (Mr. Amnesty) either. They probably just dislike Obama more. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I would not be surprised if the Obama campaign was getting money from left wing Europeans in violation of US election laws. In fact I am almost sure it is occurring. |
That's a serious charge. Do you have anything to back that up? Otherwise it's rumors, supposition and innuendo.
Always cracks me up to see conservatives complaining that somebody else is getting too much money. |
It is impossible to track who his campaign gets money from.
Left wing foreigners are crazy about Obama.
By the way I don't think Obama's campaign is intentionally seeking or accepting foreign money in violation of the law but rather they can't check every donation they get. They are happy about such a fact. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I know several Canadians and one Mexican who donated to Ron Paul. Don't know how they did it, but they said they did. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I know several Canadians and one Mexican who donated to Ron Paul. Don't know how they did it, but they said they did. |
Maybe it was through Joo. He was actually soliciting Canadians to donate to Ron Paul. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nah. I attend some pretty "out there" economics meetings from time to time. One that I went to in Canada had a handful of Paulians who said they were giving money. Maybe they were full of crap. I really have no idea how one goes about giving money even in my own country let alone the United States. |
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IMF crisis
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
And by "playing the card" as some here are calling it, he is putting the GOP on notice that all the rhetoric that gets thrown about regarding "color-blindness" means they had better police themselves and their supporters.
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Right, because the surest way to get rid of racism is to assume others are racist and look for racism in the every move and word. Then you will always prove to yourself that the people you were so sure were racists, were in fact racists, while you yourself, assuming everyone from others races are racist, are not racist at all. This whole, "be on the look-out for racism" will never, ever ease racial tensions. Wish people could rise above it.
Also, it's disgusting that he predicts the GOP will try to "scare" people by pointing out his inexperience. This is placed in the same statement about race as though pointing out one's inexperience is as invalid as pointing out one's race. Lame. I'm getting tired of people using the phrase "scare tactics" for everything. Let's face it, one party is always going to try to convince that choosing the other party is mistake. This equals "scare tactic?" Please.
How's this for a scare tactic: "the other party is racist." |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| IMF crisis wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
And by "playing the card" as some here are calling it, he is putting the GOP on notice that all the rhetoric that gets thrown about regarding "color-blindness" means they had better police themselves and their supporters.
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Right, because the surest way to get rid of racism is to assume others are racist and look for racism in the every move and word. |
The GOP has a track record. As I've shown it's not ancient history. It's happening at this very moment.
'Willie Horton' ad creator takes on Obama
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June 9, 2008
On a website he calls ExposeObama.com, Floyd G. Brown, the producer of the "Willie Horton" ad that helped defeat Michael Dukakis in 1988, is preparing an encore.
Brown is raising money for a series of ads that he says will show Barack Obama to be out of touch on an issue of fundamental concern to voters: violent crime. One spot already on the Internet attacks the presumptive Democratic nominee for opposing a bill while he was an Illinois legislator that would have extended the death penalty to gang-related murders.
"When the time came to get tough, Obama chose to be weak. . . . Can a man so weak in the war on gangs be trusted in the war on terror?" |
We can disagree, of course, but it's very likely the courts would strike down a law like this as being biased toward people of color - regardless, there are better ways to fight gangs than more cops, more prisons, more executions. Obama was a community organizer, on the street-level, so yeah, he's gonna know this, and he's gonna know what those better ways are.
I've already talked about the Willie Horton ads before - look at the website masterminded by the same guy and tell us there is nothing about it that is even a little bit off going on there. Take a look at the banner across the top, especially - sure does look like Ted Kennedy's the only white guy who like Obama, don't it?
| Quote: |
| Also, it's disgusting that he predicts the GOP will try to "scare" people by pointing out his inexperience. |
Well, try this one.
McCain disavows aide's comment about terrorism
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FRESNO, Calif. - A top adviser to John McCain said another terrorist attack on U.S. soil would be a "big advantage" for the Republican presidential candidate, drawing a sharp rebuke Monday from both the presumed GOP nominee and Democrat Barack Obama.
Charlie Black, already in the spotlight for his past lobbying work, is quoted in the upcoming July 7 edition of Fortune magazine as saying such an attack "certainly would be a big advantage to him." Black said Monday he regretted the comment. [...]
Black repeatedly has argued that McCain � a former Navy pilot and Vietnam prisoner of war who has traveled the globe while serving in Congress � benefits any time national security matters are the news of the day. By contrast, Obama has less than four years experience in the Senate and has paid only one visit to Iraq. He plans a second trip before the November election. |
This particular aide was already on his way out the door due to ties with lobbyists - nice job, getting this out in the public mind while being able to distance the candidate himself from the effect they might have. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| IMF crisis wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
And by "playing the card" as some here are calling it, he is putting the GOP on notice that all the rhetoric that gets thrown about regarding "color-blindness" means they had better police themselves and their supporters.
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Right, because the surest way to get rid of racism is to assume others are racist and look for racism in the every move and word. Then you will always prove to yourself that the people you were so sure were racists, were in fact racists, while you yourself, assuming everyone from others races are racist, are not racist at all. This whole, "be on the look-out for racism" will never, ever ease racial tensions. Wish people could rise above it.
Also, it's disgusting that he predicts the GOP will try to "scare" people by pointing out his inexperience. This is placed in the same statement about race as though pointing out one's inexperience is as invalid as pointing out one's race. Lame. I'm getting tired of people using the phrase "scare tactics" for everything. Let's face it, one party is always going to try to convince that choosing the other party is mistake. This equals "scare tactic?" Please.
How's this for a scare tactic: "the other party is racist." |
Yeah, I agree. This is equivalent to when Republicans say Democrats are Defeatocrats or that the Dems wish for the country to fail in Iraq. Its the kind of characterization that is not simply unfair, but it divides the country. Bush ran as a uniter, too, didn't he? |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
Alright, Goph...
I'll phrase it another way.
I bet you $100 dollars that several groups print and distribute media clearly pointing out Obama's race and ethnicity in an attempt to play on racist fears and motivate racist voters to go to the polls.
Do you take that bet? |
Here comes exhibit A;
http://mediamatters.org/items/200806230007?f=h_latest
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Ignoring McCain's inaction, AP claimed NC GOP "ignored McCain's repeated calls to kill" controversial ad
Summary: The AP reported that Sen. John McCain's campaign "promises to condemn any race-based political appeals" and, referring to a controversial television ad by the North Carolina state Republican Party attacking Sen. Barack Obama, asserted that McCain made "repeated calls to kill the ad." But according to the party's chairwoman, at no point did McCain call her directly and ask that she not run the ad, and McCain reportedly said that "he wouldn't have run the GOP ad, 'but I am not going to referee, I am just going to run my own campaign.' " |
"Intelligent Republicans"Goph? Don't make me laugh.
Not at all racist, Plig? He had a chance to shut this ad down and didn't. But that's minor when compared to this;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cliff-schecter/john-mccains-white-suprem_b_99014.html
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Yet, racism for electoral gain obviously did not go away with Helms' retirement from politics. And neither has Republican timidity in doing anything to control the extreme elements in the party--or their base if you will. So once again, just as other conservatives sat idly by and claimed Jesse was just being Jesse, now John McCain throws his hands up in the air as if there is nothing he can do when a racist ad is run by the North Carolina GOP against Barack Obama:
ABC NEWS' Bret Hovell and Russell Goldman report: Sen. John McCain said Thursday that if elected president -- and becomes the de facto head of the GOP -- he would not demand a change in the leadership of the North Carolina Republican Party despite condemning its plan to air an ad attacking Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, and his controversial minister.
It's good to know where the Senator stands on this issue (at least today). In my book, The Real McCain: Why Conservatives Don't Trust Him And Why Independents Shouldn't, I recount McCain' questionable past on issues of race his entire career. From the many years he rejected a Martin Luther King Jr. holiday (pretty much the entire 70s and 80s) to his serial flip-flops on the Confederate Flag in 2000 (which he admits he did for political reasons -- no way, not you Johnny!) to his close association with a white supremacist named Richard Quinn, who found himself hired as a political advisor by McCain in 2000 (and still is from what I can tell) after openly praising David Duke (he called him a "maverick") selling t-shirts praising the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and writing/editing for a magazine (Southern Partisan) that reminded us that slave masters just really weren't all that bad. |
Of course, you could just hear it from his own mouth.
| Quote: |
| "I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live. I will continue to refer to them in language that will offend people. Gook is the kindest appelation I can give." - John McCain, 2000 |
Then there's the matter of his voting record...
He got a 7% rating from the NAACP. By itself, that's not a sign of racism, however his voting against Katrina relief funds and investigations, his voting against MLK holiday, his rejection-then support-and back to rejection of the Confederate Flag, his rejection of Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones U and then embrace of Bob Jones U (which had an interracial dating ban), his embrace of Mullah/Pastor Hagee (antisemite) and Mullah/Pastor Parsley("we get off on war"), his treatment of Native Americans (despite his campaign rhetoric), and his lack of "control" over his campaign staff sure seem to say otherwise. Especially if you consider this;
Martin also reported on March 20 that "[a]n aide to John McCain was suspended from the campaign today for blasting out an inflammatory video that raises questions about Barack Obama's patriotism," as Media Matters documented. Martin wrote that the staffer, "who works in McCain's political department, sent out the YouTube link of 'Is Obama Wright?' on twitter at 12:31 today with the tag, 'Good video on Obama and Wright' " and that the video "includes images of Malcolm X, black Olympians raising their hands in the black power salute and the rap song 'Fight the Power.' "
And if you think he's bad on race issues, wait till you see his record on women's issues. |
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