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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| toiletgod2000 wrote: |
You can say that educating Americans is a service to our country, and I agree. It's just that I'd rather pick the citizens who didn't volunteer to go kill people to have a free education. |
Why? Those of us who haven't served haven't earned it.
Hint: most people who volunteered didn't volunteer specifically to go kill people or to enforce current foreign policy X or Y. They volunteered to serve and protect our country and their fellow citizens. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Khenan wrote: |
| "Support the troops"? Why? They already get paid - that's the bargain, right? They shoot people who speak funny languages, and then the government pays them. If they're complaining about their contracts, then they should have bargained for more. |
Their contracts? Their contracts are meaningless. Many have their end of term of service dates involuntarily extended repeatedly by George "aWol" Bush and Dick "5 Derferments" Cheney because a draft would be unpopular. It doesn't matter to Bush and Cheney that these guys have been over their fighting for years and many of them have wives and kids that need them. They would leave those men in Iraq for the duration of McCain's proposed 100 year war before they would do something as politically unpopular as a draft.
I'm sure there are a lot of soldiers in Iraq who would love for the pro-war people on the internet to "support the troops" by joining the military and serving in their places so they can finally go home to their families. Pro-war Americans who refuse to go fight and leave those men and women stranded in Iraq are the absolute worst type of American. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| toiletgod2000 wrote: |
I disagree with the new bill. Why should we provide any incentives to increase the size of the army? I want to see it shrink, not get bigger or more expensive. According to the current projections, the size would drop something like 16% due to GIs going to college, but would increase 16% due to new recruits. So right now, it's predicted that the army would stay the same size but get more expensive. If the economic downturn accelerates, more people will join up, further increasing costs.
Why should we give them anything extra after their finished? It would be like my school giving me a check for $40,000 on my way out for two years of good service. They wouldn't get better teaching or more dedication out of me, although you can bet there would be a lot of competition to replace me.
You can say that educating Americans is a service to our country, and I agree. It's just that I'd rather pick the citizens who didn't volunteer to go kill people to have a free education. |
Oh, kumbayaa.
I wonder if any of you people has ever heard of anything like the long view.
No, no, I get it. You're right. We should pick the ones who just want to sit on their fat, lazy asses and be handed all the rights and none of the responsibilties of citizenship.
A GI Bill for servicemembers is not a free education. An enlistment in the military does indeed come with costs, not the least of which is, perhaps, knowing you may have to take another life or to be the life that is taken. If this is your definition of "free," I'd be interested in hearing your definition of "expensive." It's a harder job than you will ever have the temerity to undertake. Please keep your puling sentiment out of the equation. "Killing is baaad." Oh, fucking spare me.
For the record, I don't agree with the conduct of the current war in either Iraq or Afghanistan, but it's hard to imagine a more idiotic and simplistic world view than one that expresses itself, for all intents and purposes, as, "You know, we really shouldn't encourage people to be killers. Because killing is baaad. Didn't your mommy tell you that?" |
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toiletgod2000
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't think most people who sign up for the military do it out of altruism or a sense of duty or responsibility. I think most people sign up to get a paycheck.
After they've collected their paycheck, I don't see that their country owes them any more than the benefits they were promised. The troops knew what they were getting into, they signed up, they got paid, and there were opportunities to get money for college and education while in the military.
Also, I don't think that vets should add to the competition to get into decent state schools just because they are vets and the government decided to give them extra money. Troops are paid a decent salary. Why should they get any more? |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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I though this topic was about something else. I knew a girl in the army, and she liked being done the wrong way  |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| Their contracts? Their contracts are meaningless. Many have their end of term of service dates involuntarily extended |
Have you ever read the things? That's part of the contract.
toilet: You're displaying an impressive amount of ignorance. Get off your tush and read the relevant issues in the press and in the law. They're not state secrets. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: |
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McCain is against this GI Bill because Bush is against this GI Bill.
It doesn't get more complicated than that.
McBush does have his own GI Bill, but it's a lot weaker than Sen. Webb's.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/26/mccain/
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| McCain, along with Sens. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Richard Burr of North Carolina, has introduced an alternative bill that would increase education benefits on a sliding scale based on an individual's years of service. McCain argues his bill would have a smaller impact on retention rates than the legislation that the Senate passed. |
UPDATE: While I was researching this topic, McFlipFlop has decided to support this GI Bill of Sen. Webb's that was passed in the Senate.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/06/mccain-now-supp.html
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| But, with the addition of a clause allowing service members to transfer their benefits to family members, McCain now supports the 21st Century Bill of Rights, the proposal to give substantially more benefits to veterans for college after their service in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he'll support a deal between the White House and House Democrats to fund the war along with $21 billion in domestic spending. |
After X amount of years of fighting/wasting time and money and blood in/over Iraq, for the profits of KBR/Halliburton/Exxon/Fascism/anything other than what they were told they were fighting for, all troops deserve a chance at a decent civilian life. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| toiletgod2000 wrote: |
| I don't think most people who sign up for the military do it out of altruism or a sense of duty or responsibility. I think most people sign up to get a paycheck. |
Rather irrelevant why most people sign up. More germane is the effect: those who sign up serve their country.
| toiletgod2000 wrote: |
| After they've collected their paycheck, I don't see that their country owes them any more than the benefits they were promised. The troops knew what they were getting into, they signed up, they got paid, and there were opportunities to get money for college and education while in the military. |
That's one perspective. Its one reason why I argued that the government should help pay for everyone's education. Of course, for offering this opinion I was accused of poor reading comprehension. But your objection to the military getting 'extra' reveals why I said it. Well, the country benefits from continuing education. And if anyone deserves it, its those who have risked their freedom to serve (nevermind their very life).
| toiletgod2000 wrote: |
| Also, I don't think that vets should add to the competition to get into decent state schools just because they are vets and the government decided to give them extra money. Troops are paid a decent salary. Why should they get any more? |
Because the US military is a social program. And the most effective social program that we have. Again, look at it less from the perspective of what the US is giving up, and more from the perspective of what the US is investing into. |
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toiletgod2000
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I did some research. According to US News & World Report:
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| After subtracting out scholarships and tax breaks, the net cost of spending [last] academic year at an in-state public college, including tuition, dorms, meals, books and transportation, [was] averaging $11,900. |
According to gibill.org:
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| The maximum yearly benefit available through the current GI Bill (to active duty veterans) is $9,675. |
With the average so close to the funds given, why change the program? Any vet who really wants to go to school can figure out a way to afford it. If someone saves some cash while in the service, they can get four years of food, schooling, books, and housing, without even getting a job. Why should it be any easier?
Now that I look at some hard numbers, I oppose the new bill even more. It will cover tuition plus $1000 for books/year and $1000/month living expenses. So the new GI Bill gives tuition plus $13,000 per year. Average tuition was $6,185. So here's the average cost of the new GI Bill per person per year:
Tuition (average) $6,185
+Books $1,000
+Stipend $12,000
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=Total $19,185
- average cost $11,900
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cash in pockets $7,285
x4 years
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$29,140
What's wrong with this picture? Oh yeah, it's the new mustang outside the dorm that the government is giving vets as a graduation present for going to school for free!
Kuros raises a good point about the army as a social program. It is a good way for people to climb the ladder of socio-economic success, but I think this is mismanagement of funds akin to a $1000 Medicare oxygen bottle.
IF you want to make a new GI bill, benefits should be capped at the college's own expense forecast. Another option would be to simply force colleges to consider vets in-state for tuition without changing the current structure. Then our GIs could certainly find a college that is affordable somewhere.
http://www.newgibill.org/facts-legislation.php
http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/paying-for-college/2007/10/23/college-tuition-prices-continue-to-rise.html |
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