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Why are you a liberal/conservative?
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject:

nolegirl wrote:

Kimbop, your a genius.

Kimbop = nolegirl?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject:

Kimbop wrote:

I want the government to pay for my healthcare, university, and social assistance. This way, I can be as reckless and irresponsible as I want, and I don't have to worry about paying for my own medical bills. Heck, I don't pay taxes, so I don't have to worry about paying the medical bills of the apathetic either. I have to wait 8 months to have surgery, but at least it's free! And no, we CANNOT have the option for private health care, because that would enable the rich (or responsible) to get help sooner! That's not fair!

Well, the insurance companies as it is are about as reckless and irresponsible as they wanted to be. The courts now have special rules for those organizations. Lastly, I think very few argue against a parallel private health care system.

Kimbop wrote:

I also want free education. When I turn 18 and start university, I think I'll major in fine art. No, wait a second, I think I'll change my major to English. I can't do much with an English degree, so I think I'll enter a poli sci program. Good thing taxpayers are paying for my education! Now that I have two degrees, I'm going to move to another country, and pay taxes into THEIR system!

The government could provide full tuition, but who has ever argued the government should provide living expenses? Besides, in science PHD programs, the universities already provide salaries. The government could very easily provide greater assistance for certain degrees, and lesser assistance for others. As it is, the public university system in America is already taxpayer subsidized on the state level. It wouldn't be all or nothing.

Lastly, you've ignored opportunity costs. While someone is working towards a degree full-time, they are likely unable to make the same amount of money had they done something else.

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:

Don't some countries provide living expenses for university students? I thought there were a few that did. In Canada, I think the argument against a parallel private health-care system is that it would weaken the public health-care system. If the public system became just for poor people, it would deteriorate into a "poor system" and people would receive different standards of care depending on how much they could pay. I believe that's already happening to some extent, but that conservatives in Canada want it to go further and make the Canadian system even more like the U.S. system ...

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject:

Bramble wrote:

I believe that's already happening to some extent, but that conservatives in Canada want it to go further and make the Canadian system even more like the U.S. system ...

I didn't know that there are only two systems on earth.. Ain't that somethin. 170+ countries, two health care systems.

Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Bramble wrote:

I believe that's already happening to some extent, but that conservatives in Canada want it to go further and make the Canadian system even more like the U.S. system ...

I didn't know that there are only two systems on earth.. Ain't that somethin. 170+ countries, two health care systems.

JustJohn

Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject:

Last I heard it was 214 countries.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject:

170+ = 214. More or less. Actually, the last I heard, there were 195 official countries in the world.

Kimbop

Joined: 31 Mar 2008

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject:

nolegirl wrote:

Kimbop, your a genius.

If govt paid for my schooling I would never leave. I would quadruple major in everything. I would never want to enter into the dreaded real world. Then I would just milk welfare with my 3 kids from 3 different daddies. And then the govt is going to pay for my trailer!!! SCORE

This is what bramble votes for! And bramble LIKES paying 45% + of his paycheck in taxes! Bramble is from Canada---- Let me guess, he'd probably vote for Stephane Dion!

Bramble wrote:

With that being said, I favour left-leaning economic policies because I don�t think poor people should be punished for being poor. When I was younger, there was an ultraconservative mindset in Canada that widened the gap between the haves and the have-nots and made it much more difficult for young people to get started in life. It's practically impossible to get a decent education in Canada without accumulating a shitload of debt. The policies of conservative governments there have had disastrous effects on everyone (including animals), and they�re the main reason I�m in no hurry to go back.

Let me guess: This was probably during the 1980s when Mulroney was in power and all levels of government in North America were running high deficits; commodity prices were low, unemployment and interest rates were high. Look at Canada now: unemployment is low (especially in the western half of the country), Harper is paying off the debt, and your northern sovereignty is protected. You actually have an army now, as opposed to the laughing stock your liberals maintained.

Poor people in Canada are NOT punished. All Canadians are given an equal opportunity (some have MORE opportunities) for success. Personal responsibility has been stripped away by a leftie-nanny welfare state that wipes the bums of EVERYONE in the country, while working families are punished! NOT the poor! Why do you think the poor reproduce like bunnies in Canada, and are supplied with a free house, while working familes can't afford more than 2 kids?!

My grandfather arrived in NYC with NOTHING. (And yours probably came to Canada with nothing as well) No state-run health care, no social safety net, no low income housing... only the WILL to work hard and persevere. The road to hell is paved with good intentions: the Canadian liberals strip away the 'will' to succeed, and promote dependance on the state.

Cheif Laurence Louie (a smart Canadian) said it best: "if your life sucks, it's because you suck!"

Canadian lawmakers are working on a finely balanced two-tier healthcare system. I guess Canadians don't like waiting 8 months for surgery, and are getting tired of misdiagnoses from 2nd class doctors. (In contrast whith what Michael More tells you, Canadian health care is not all peaches and cream. And the US system ain't as bad as he says, either.)

In Canada, you can find thousands of different videos in a movie store, thousands of brands of booze in a licka sto', but if you break your arm, you have no choice in the matter. The state decides when, where, who, and how it is fixed.

You have more choices and faster service when a dog breaks its leg in Canada.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

170+ = 214. More or less. :wink:

Actually, the last I heard, there were 195 official countries in the world.

I didn't want to look it up. Lazy lazy me.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject:

nolegirl wrote:

Exxon Mobil is a smart company.

They sure are. All these years after the Valdez spill, they still haven't paid everything up they owe to clean up the mess. Oh, and now the latest smart idea: let's open up more Alaskan wilderness to be drilled.

One of the finest roles of govt is that of checks and balances between the wealthy and powerful and the poor and powerless. If the govt was doing its job right things would be better. The FEMA disaster after Katrina was due to the conservative notion that govt is not in the business of helping when its citizen need help. The answer is more govt not less, govt that works for the people and not against them.

I scored 90% personal amd 30% economic.

Is socialism a bad idea? Ask anyone who went to school and learned to read and didn't pay a dime for it. Do people die very often in America just because they got too old to work? Very rarely these days, and you can blame that dastardly socialist FDR for something called Social Security ... these are both good ideas that are leftwing and made America better. Now, we just have to hold onto them and make them better.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Ask anyone who went to school and learned to read and didn't pay a dime for it.

Your parents paid for it in taxes. Nothing is free.

Anyways, public education and retirement systems aren't socialism strictly speaking. They are social programs and even free market types like me are able to support them for solid reasons. Few people make the argument that social security ought to be done away with or that education should be 100% private.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject:

nolegirl wrote:

Quote:

If govt paid for my schooling I would never leave. I would quadruple major in everything. I would never want to enter into the dreaded real world. Then I would just milk welfare with my 3 kids from 3 different daddies. And then the govt is going to pay for my trailer!!! SCORE

If this is such a good option, why doesn't everyone in a country that does cover tuition costs do it? Have you ever been to a country that supplies tuition for students? Have you talked to students/workers there? Do you have any idea of what you're talking about? I really don't mean to sound insulting, but maybe instead of mocking the system perhaps you should spend your time researching it and actually understanding it.

And I love all the stories of 'friends of friends' and welfare queens and the like. How many people openly and consistantly abuse the system? I don't know, but it's likely much, much less than those that are temporarily helped by it after supporting it for years. Should we scrap every system if there is any way a very small percentage can abuse it? There are a couple of crooked cops in my home town. Should we just abolish the police department? Some taxi drivers overcharge their fares with no recourse. Should we ban taxis? Or, like the reasonable people we pretend to be, should we continue trying to tinker with the system to make it more sound while still ensuring most people have access to it when they need it most?

Kimbop wrote:

Quote:

Poor people in Canada are NOT punished. All Canadians are given an equal opportunity (some have MORE opportunities) for success.

I wouldn't say poor people are 'punished' exactly, but the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity is laughable. Anyone who comes from a family that earns less than $40,000, or had a family member get sick, or has a disabled sibling, or had their house burn down, can attest to this. The only people who believe that equal opportunity exists are the ones who never had to limit their opportunities.

Quote:

In Canada, you can find thousands of different videos in a movie store, thousands of brands of booze in a licka sto', but if you break your arm, you have no choice in the matter. The state decides when, where, who, and how it is fixed.

Yes, I see you've internalized all the propaganda. I hear shocking stories all the time about wait times in Canada. I've never, ever, experienced these 'wait times', nor has anyone I've ever known, though. Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver and small towns all around these, with conditions from serious to not so much. Sure, one time I had to wait 5 hours to be seen with a badly cut finger, but I think the head on collision between tour buses was a bit more important than me. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a minute that there are some cases where people have to wait for procedures or to be seen. That is a problem, and I think we could work to reduce this if we work in good faith rather than exaggerate the problem and declare the sky is falling. I personally know two families in the US who have been destroyed by medical emergencies. Completely destroyed. There are certainly more than two ways of doing health care, but I believe the fear of a for-profit American system is earned.

Really, I think all these problems can be discussed and reasonable people can disagree. I just get annoyed by the scare tactics and hyperbole. There's millions of women out there pumping out kids JUST so they can collect a couple of hundred bucks a month? Maybe we should shut off Ricky Lake and Fox News and actually start surveying the real world.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

The figures relating to wait times for various procedures are widely documented. You can find them with a few simple clicks.

My family isn't rich, but we seldom use the Canadian system for much more than dr. visits. My brother, father and I have all had serious-ish medial procedures done in Montana for reasons of wait times. One family member was told he had a potential brain tumor and told to wait many months to see a specialist. We sent him to Montana that evening and had the necessary tests done pronto. The Canadian system suffers from the same problems of rationing that every planned economy creates. A better system exists in France and elsewhere in Europe where there is more private delivery, yet still public funding. Healthcare economists increasingly look to the Taiwanese system for a model of timely delivery, wide access and low costs.

There are more than two systems. It isn't the case that Canada either has 1) an American style system or 2) "free" healthcare. There are many more models to choose from.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Anyways, public education and retirement systems aren't socialism strictly speaking.

Um, yeah, they are, actually, though Social Security is theoretically less so because the benefits you receive are tied to the amount paid into it - I, for instance, will have much less coming to me because of the time I've spent in Korea while not paying inot it. Public ed? Absolutely. Your kids get an education even if you are too poor to pay taxes - in fact, rich or poor, citizen or not, you don't have a choice, you are required to see that your children will be educated.

Why should working and wealthy people pay for the education of people whose parents are poor and unemployed? Well, because society, and the country as a whole is better off if everyone can read and write and do simple sums and hopefully more than that.

And that is the core belief behind socialist theory, you know. It's not all about Robin Hood taking fro the rich and giving to the poor. It's a very practical idea that evryone is better off when everyone has access to just enough.

Quote:

Few people make the argument that social security ought to be done away with or that education should be 100% private.

Yes, and VERY few developed countries think it's rational that a person's chances of surviving a hospital stay ought to be in any way connected the health of one's stock portfolio or how robust their 401(k) has been earning this year.

But, hey, that's the America we have right now. It doesn't have to stay that way, though.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

170+ = 214. More or less. Wink

Actually, the last I heard, there were 195 official countries in the world.

Yes, but are you counting Forvik?

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