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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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mises wrote:
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| There are more than two systems. It isn't the case that Canada either has 1) an American style system or 2) "free" healthcare. There are many more models to choose from. |
I wrote:
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There are certainly more than two ways of doing health care, but I believe the fear of a for-profit American system is earned.
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Yes, I agree with you. My point was that people in Canada fear any changes to the current system because we see first hand what is happening in the US. I never said Canada's system was free, either. There are plenty of models around the world that Canada can look towards. As I stated at the end of that post, I think policy makers and reasonable people can discuss these options without resorting to exaggeration. I don't question your experience with health care in Canada or that there are problems. There are problems with every system. Right now I'd rather my country supply delayed services to ALL rather than services to a few and screw the rest. Right now my aunt is suffering from a multitude of health problems and if she lived in most other countries she wouldn't be able to afford any health care at all. Sure she has to wait for the right specialists and equipment, but that's better than many of the alternatives. I'm sorry to be so bleak, but the reason your family member was able to see a specialist so quickly in the US was because hundreds of others with possible brain tumors couldn't afford to see that doctor. What do you think happend to all those people?
Of course there are other options, but they all include a sufficiently funded public system. That is the signature of any modern civilized state. |
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nolegirl
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| And I love all the stories of 'friends of friends' and welfare queens and the like. How many people openly and consistently abuse the system? I don't know, but it's likely much, much less than those that are temporarily helped by it after supporting it for years. Should we scrap every system if there is any way a very small percentage can abuse it? There are a couple of crooked cops in my home town. Should we just abolish the police department? Some taxi drivers overcharge their fares with no recourse. Should we ban taxis? Or, like the reasonable people we pretend to be, should we continue trying to tinker with the system to make it more sound while still ensuring most people have access to it when they need it most? |
Yes, but it is not a small percentage. For example, the state decided that after your 3rd child that they would not pay welfare on any other child. So your 4th child would not receive welfare benefits. Guess what, abortion rate went up 46%. That�s crazy!!! Then you have the guy that is on disability for a back problem but can role around and have sex and make a baby. ummm... if he can do that I think he is able enough to sit at a desk and work a 9-5er. It�s not a small percentage like you think but I understand the point you are making.
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| I wouldn't say poor people are 'punished' exactly, but the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity is laughable. Anyone who comes from a family that earns less than $40,000, or had a family member get sick, or has a disabled sibling, or had their house burn down, can attest to this. The only people who believe that equal opportunity exists are the ones who never had to limit their opportunities. |
This is bull. My mom and dad got divorced when I was 5. He went into court said he got fired from his company (it was my grandfathers, so he went along), he put his houses, boats everything into the companies name. If you quit you still have to pay a lot of child support if you get fired you don�t, he knew this. He had no collateral in his name and ended up having to pay $300 for child support on 3 kids ($100 each) which is shit b/c he was loaded. We had to sell our house to pay the lawyer, got pulled from private school and my mom had to get a job. She worked her ass off and for the last 20 years heading up large Medicare companies. She put me and my 2 sisters through college single handedly (never remarried) and through to their masters (except me, I�m sort of the black sheep!) and yet when I applied for grants my mom made to much money?? She has never received a dime of child support, has 3 kids (all were in college at the same time) one at Rutgers in grad school and me my other sister at FSU. But no, we didn�t qualify for grant money. Why, b/c my mom made to much. Bull, complete bull!!! And all the scholarships were for African Americans, Latinos, or Native Americans. I got $10,000 dollars in private scholarships b/c my mom forced me to volunteer every summer, I had to be class president, in student government, in every freakin club and pull my grades. It�s called hard work. So equal opportunity does not exist. 70% of the scholarships I saw were for an ethnicity. God forbid your white applying for scholarships.
And the worst part is in college I worked for a really nice apt complex. When anyone wanted to sign a lease you had to run there credit, which usually meant the students parents. It was sort of the cool place to live if you went to FAMU which is an all black college. No one could ever pull enough credit b/c it was expensive to live there. So another way to show you could afford was by showing proof of student loans/grants for the year. What was complete bull, is that they would show proof of $10K in grants yet they are living at the most expensive apt complex. Wow tax dollars going to work. Then the best part is they would be driving around in a Jag. But in the end I guess they�ll pay b/c most showed proof of 30K in loans, plus grant money for one year, one year!!! FAMU is not that expensive, neither is FSU, especially b/c Florida pays for your college tuition if you go to public college. I hope they had fun in college impressing the ladies b/c they will be paying off there loans forever. Let�s see 30K x 4 = 120K which the federal govt does not give out that much so probably some private loans with high ass interest, too.
Alot of people made good points on here like Bobster and Blackcat but I guess I speak from a more personal outlook then at the whole picture sometimes which I should be more careful about.
Also, in England don�t they have to recruit doctors from India b/c they don't have enough for there public health system? Correct me if I am wrong?? I think it�s a fabulous idea to have free heathcare, just like securing the border would have been a fabulous idea but really�.. The govt can�t do shit and if we turn the whole public health system over to them it will turn to shit. I bet what would happen is doctors will have private practices for the rich then the fresh out of college doctors will be the ones in the ER b/c all the experienced doctors actually want to get paid so they do private practice. And then you�ll see an influx of doctors for elective surgeries so they can paid, too. My mom works for home heathcare (Medicare) and her company has not gotten paid by the govt in the last 6 months. Luckily she works for a large corporation but dam, 6 months of no revenue for over 300 patients. This is what will happen. Then all the red tape that goes with it.
btw, mises i like your avatar!!! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| nolegirl wrote: |
Also, in England don�t they have to recruit doctors from India b/c they don't have enough for there public health system? Correct me if I am wrong?? I think it�s a fabulous idea to have free heathcare, just like securing the border would have been a fabulous idea but really�.. The govt can�t do shit and if we turn the whole public health system over to them it will turn to shit. I bet what would happen is doctors will have private practices for the rich then the fresh out of college doctors will be the ones in the ER b/c all the experienced doctors actually want to get paid so they do private practice. And then you�ll see an influx of doctors for elective surgeries so they can paid, too. My mom works for home heathcare (Medicare) and her company has not gotten paid by the govt in the last 6 months. Luckily she works for a large corporation but dam, 6 months of no revenue for over 300 patients. This is what will happen. Then all the red tape that goes with it.
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All right, but do you honestly believe that the US doesn't have the most f'd up health care system in the developed world? We get so little "bang for our buck" that it is a joke. It seriously needs reform.
I suggest studying the history of blue shield and blue cross. They started off as two non-profit community-driven organizations became the profit-driven giants they are today. |
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dtown
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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No offense nolegirl but do you actually have ANY idea how the US health system works? Saying something like the US has the best doctors in the world (like that means anything) makes you sound a little ignorant on this topic. The US may have the best trained medical personnel but they have FAR from the best health care. For those few people that can actually afford health care, the product they receive, given how much they pay, is really 3rd world.
You clearly don't understand how medical school/residency work. If you have been to the doctor/hospital recently it was VERY probable you were taken care of by a resident. Residents work crazy hours for very little money so that the "real" doctors can have their vacation time. Also, the US outsources their "work" to other countries, such as Australia, again so the doctors can have their vacation time.
While I kind of agree with you that our government would not be able to pull off public health care I don't think the US can continue its ways, private health care, insurance companies, etc. It clearly is not doing its job. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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nolegirl wrote:
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Yes, but it is not a small percentage. For example, the state decided that after your 3rd child that they would not pay welfare on any other child. So your 4th child would not receive welfare benefits. Guess what, abortion rate went up 46%. That�s crazy!!! Then you have the guy that is on disability for a back problem but can role around and have sex and make a baby. ummm... if he can do that I think he is able enough to sit at a desk and work a 9-5er. It�s not a small percentage like you think but I understand the point you are making.
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"The state decided that after your 3rd child that they would not pay welfare on any other child." What state? When? Link?
"Guess what, abortion rate went up 46%. That's crazy!!!" Where? When? Link? Actually, I think a 46% increase in abortions in any American state would be shocking. So much so that we would have heard about it if it were true and not related to access becoming more available. Besides, my mom couldn't have afforded to have me (I was an accident), but her parents helped her out. I don't know if she would have had an abortion if they weren't there to help her, but I seriously doubt she got pregnant just to loaf off her parents.
"Then you have the guy...." What guy? Here we go with the 'friend of friend' stories that can never be confirmed nor refuted. Here's one of my own: When I worked at a factory in the summers I knew of a couple of people who would abuse the system. I also knew of possibly a dozen who would have been SOL if there wasn't some sort of safty net for them when they became disabled or their kid fell down some stairs. This is just some anectodal eveidence from my life (which can neither be confirmed or denied), but I'd say 2/14 people IS a small percentage. I'd rather have the 2 people abusing the system than the 12 destroyed because of the lack of it. It's not just there for the 'others'. It's there for you and me, too, if the need were to ever arise.
I'm also very happy that you're mother was able to provide for you and your sisters (no sarcasm). Like your father, my parents decided for me from the age of 14 that I had to be financially responsible for myself. I had to pay room and board, all my universtiy savings from paper routes were purged and I had to get a near FT job. But I still feel like I was lucky. There's waaaaay worse out there. I've worked my ass off my entire life, along with my sisters, though I know many others around the world work much harder. I did establish myself and I've reached a nice level in life so far. However, like you, my father earned too much for me to get any public assistance in school. Double edge sword, that was.
So, yeah, almost anyone can become slightly better. My point is that I in no way had the same opportunities as my friends who parents made 6 digits (and shared it with them), used their influence to get them into interships and coveted jobs, etc. I'm not saying the goverment should fix all these problems, I certainy know life is unfair and there's no fixing that. But I've long ago abandonned the notion that 'equal opportunity' exists. Ask a black kid in Mississippi if he believes he has an equal opportunity to become president to a wealthy white kid from Conneticut. By lying to ourselves and pretending that life is fair and it's the fault of the individual if they don't succeed, we've really avoided trying to make it at least as fair as we can.
You'd think after working at mutiple jobs most of my life and barely getting by on bills I would be more fiscally conservative and bitter. But, you know, I'm not. It is true, I had loads of opportunities to better myself and I'm happy to think that a majority of my countryfolk believe in helping others aspire to the same. In the last 10 years I've travelled quite a bit all over the world and I realize what happens when your government doesn't give a sheet about you. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I am neither I like to think that I am part of the political moon, the cause of the effect so to speak, one of the many that in control of the ebb and the tide. |
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